Richard Wiig Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 You sound half-reasonable.This quote is what I just wrote to Bob.Anyway, that puts the number of drooling psychopathic bloodthirsty jihad freaks at about 70 million (twice the population of my entire country). Boggles the mind.It was good for the three-and-a-half hours it lasted.Gotta withdraw it, though.(Man, I hate bigotry.)MichaelTell me what's bigoted about that. Seriously, enlighten me and everyone else who wants to know.How would you describe people who overtly agree that 911 was completely justified. That's who these people are.Seriously now, enlighten me.BobThere's nothing bigoted about that. Michael obviously thinks you should be polite about drooling jihad freaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Wiig Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 The reason for the quotes is to make it easier to maintain the context, which is a very important thing to do. That you can't follow the posts, which are certainly not long or hard to fathom, because they have a few quotes in them, says more about you than anything else. It's actually very convenient for you - it helps you to maintain your unjust treatment of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Gentlemen:Can we all agree, or stipulate, that seven (7%) to ten (10%) of the global Islamic population is in the to be watched for dangerous activity that is directed against the Western type society or individual as a baseline.Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Wiig Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 There's a much smarter way of doing things.What is solution to the problem?Why not try to get the other 93% to turn on the 7%?That will do some real damage--and you don't even have to get the whole 93%. Just the public voices of that 93%. The rest will follow.It's not actually 93%, because there's a whole segment that sympathises without actually supporting the tactics. They support the cause and ultimate goal. But anway, whatever percentage it is that may be persuaded, how do you propose to persuade them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmacwilliam Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 As to your idea of "disparaging," I don't agree. The macho thump-on-your-chest stuff just doesn't work with fanatics. It's like trying to taunt a rattlesnake--and in this case, without knowing where it is. Fear it and fight it and eradicate it, OK. I'm on board with that. But sticking your tongue out at it in public? That's not very productive, except for putting a target on your own back for easy identification by vicious people who ambush as a habit.No. That's where I think you're wrong. Getting the "93%" to turn on the 7%? Never gonna happen. Remember, there is going to be a very large number who feel the bombings were partially justified. Those people are going to turn against the extremists? They're already extremists, just not quite ready to accept murder so easily. Remember, 70% of men and 62% of women in Egypt support Sharia law as the ONLY source of legistlation.I see two ways to fight this battle:1) Force - a tough road (though it worked with the Nazis)2) Denormalization (this is very effective)The way this works is very simple - 'normal' people don't do it. "Normal" people don't worship a mass-murdering warlord. If you want to do this, go ahead, but don't do it near me, don't tell me about it, and rest assured we think it's a really dumb thing to do and we don't respect it. Works with smoking and many other deviant behaviours. This would certainly be effective against obesity too if we weren't so preoccupied with avoiding hurting people's precious 'feelings' at all costs.We all know that Islam is a lie. We all know that it's really dumb thing to do. We all know that it is very dangerous to a large number of people (the Sharia supporters included) not just those who are in the 7-10%. And, it's the truth.Or, we could just wait until it implodes on its own, yeah that'll work...Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Bob,So that's why you are here in these discussions. To demoralize Muslims.So tell me. How many Muslims have you "demoralized" here on OL enough to make them abandon Islam?Inquiring minds seek enlightenment.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmacwilliam Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Bob,So that's why you are here in these discussions. To demoralize Muslims.So tell me. How many Muslims have you "demoralized" here on OL enough to make them abandon Islam?Inquiring minds seek enlightenment.MichaelNope, just pointing out nonsense.Claiming that Islamic denormalization is the only viable strategy short of violence is not the same as actually doing it. Talking about losing weight is not the same as doing it. Get it? Can you wrap your head around the context here??Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Bob,You mean you prefer singing to a choir than actually doing something.Sort of like talking about losing weight instead of doing it.Yeah. I think I got my head around that concept.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmacwilliam Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Bob,You mean you prefer singing to a choir than actually doing something.Sort of like talking about losing weight instead of doing it.Yeah. I think I got my head around that concept.MichaelSays the man with 13,347 posts...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Bob,I got a public voice on my own and I earned it. You have to come here and lean on mine to get yours. A Muslim intellectual even shows up around here at times--and in our discussions, much good has happened.What's happening in your world? Talking about weight loss doing if for you?Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Incidentally, this isn't true of all OL contributors.Some people come here to read their ideas, not mine. They use my platform, but not my voice.As they should.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmacwilliam Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 (edited) Bob,I got a public voice on my own and I earned it. You have to come here and lean on mine to get yours. A Muslim intellectual even shows up around here at times--and in our discussions, much good has happened.You really really don't like it when reality bites you do you? You insult me with an accusation of uselessness - "singing to the choir" but get bent out of shape when the truth that your "singing" is far more...prolific (to be generous) than mine is pointed out? Then you respond with the notion that your voice is good, and mine is crap (or I even "lean" on yours) - LOL!"Muslim Intellectual"??? Ha!This guy is so intractably misogynestic that he doesn't even realize when he is offensive and rather brutally hateful. I think he honestly doesn't realize it (after all he's not that bright). But you don't dare challenge him do you? Why? I don't care why, but I suggest you reflect on this. I don't think very much of someone that has an insufficient morality and/or intellect to figure this out.The bottom line is that my morality is, I hesitate to say opposite, but certainly very very different than your own and many (but not all) others here. I enjoy the debate to an extent, but in many cases, this one included, I am once again the only one that offers any shred of evidence, numbers, logic or reality beyond irrational emotional outbursts. You think you have some kind of a "voice" - well, hey, Milli Vanilli (sp?) got famous without any voice at all, so anything is possible I guess.What's happening in your world? Talking about weight loss doing if for you?MichaelI live and work in a world where logic and truth actually matter. You should visit sometime.Bob Edited February 2, 2011 by Bob_Mac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I live and work in a world where logic and truth actually matter. You should visit sometime.Bob,OK.I'll try it. So show me.How many Muslims have you disparaged into your intent of getting them to abandon Islam?Inquiring minds seek enlightenment. And they have great curiosity about "where logic and truth actually matter."Is this something one can see? They wish to behold this inspiring place.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I think he honestly doesn't realize it (after all he's not that bright). But you don't dare challenge him do you? Why? Bob,Is mind reading instead of reading actual posts (where I have challenged him) part of your inspiring place "where logic and truth actually matter"--the one I should try?Inquiring minds so very longingly seek enlightenment.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Most Muslim terrorists have been state sponsored, the religion being used for sanction. Neutralize the former and the sanction loses its mojo, especially if it's mostly done sub-rosa. Overt war is only making everything worse because there is a virtually unlimited supply of would-be martyrs to feed into it.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmacwilliam Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 How many Muslims have you disparaged into your intent of getting them to abandon Islam?Did I make some kind of claim I'm not aware of? Did I lead you to believe I run some kind of tough-love Islam rehab centre?Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmacwilliam Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I think he honestly doesn't realize it (after all he's not that bright). But you don't dare challenge him do you? Why? Bob,Is mind reading instead of reading actual posts (where I have challenged him) part of your inspiring place "where logic and truth actually matter"--the one I should try?Inquiring minds so very longingly seek enlightenment.MichaelYou're right. I suppose you may have "tried to encourage him" from time to time. The fact remains that you are profoundly blind to alarming moral deficits and bigotry. You know it's out there, and flail around taking shots at it here and there, even invent it where it doesn't exist, but without ever identifying it correctly or even coherently.Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Bob,More mind reading instead of post reading?Where, oh where, is enlightenment to be found in this?Is there no light or are my eyes closed?But let's give it a try. I'll try to open them.Do you have any good mind-reading course you can suggest?Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Wiig Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Michael said:There's a much smarter way of doing things.I asked: What is the solution to the problem?Michael said:Why not try to get the other 93% to turn on the 7%?That will do some real damage--and you don't even have to get the whole 93%. Just the public voices of that 93%. The rest will follow.I asked: It's not actually 93%, because there's a whole segment that sympathises without actually supporting the tactics. They support the cause and ultimate goal. But anyway, whatever percentage it is that might be persuaded, how do you propose to persuade them?I'm very interested in hearing your plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Richard,I answered in another thread.To make this one different, I want to paraphrase a wonderful movie I saw a while ago (I can't remember the name). A man killed the murderer of his son and turned himself in. He said (my paraphrase: "It's not hard to do the right thing. What's hard is knowing what the right thing is and not doing it."You want an on-off button for people. You will only find that on the trigger of a gun.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Wiig Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Richard,I answered in another thread.To make this one different, I want to paraphrase a wonderful movie I saw a while ago (I can't remember the name). A man killed the murderer of his son and turned himself in. He said (my paraphrase: "It's not hard to do the right thing. What's hard is knowing what the right thing is and not doing it."You want an on-off button for people. You will only find that on the trigger of a gun.MichaelI don't want anything of the sort. I'd merely like to know what your solution is. I haven't seen this on another thread, and I don't even know what thread you are refering to. If you could provide a link, or name the thread, I would appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 I don't want anything of the sort.Well that's what you got.Figure it out.Or not...Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Wiig Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 I got an on/off button? I don't understand. Why can't you just direct me to your approach to combatting Islamic fundamentalism. I'm in sincerely interested in how you'd approach it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 I got an on/off button? I don't understand. Why can't you just direct me to your approach to combatting Islamic fundamentalism. I'm in sincerely interested in how you'd approach it.Absent his approach, what is yours? How do you recommend eliminating the threat of I-fundamentalism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Daunce,I got tired of repeating it.I mentioned the Nazi element countless times. I have talked about the hypnotic effect of the Qur'an from being in the present tense and how evil people are using it to brainwash mentally vulnerable people to become suicide bombers. And on and on and on. I'm tired of this being ignored while the mindless question of "What are your ideas?" keeps repeating over and over.I can't make the stuff I talk about fit into anti-Islamic bigotry. I can't turn it into an on-off button to make Muslims instantly obey. I can use it to help make people think and check their own premises.I have even talked about reaching ringleaders.Let me show you something concrete. The situation below is already past the tipping point, so I don't think anything could be done immediately there. But it is a very good example of how ideas work in practice. This is Christiane Amanpour being threatened by protesters recently over in Egypt.<img style="visibility:hidden;width:0px;height:0px;" border=0 width=0 height=0 src="http://c.gigcount.com/wildfire/IMP/CXNID=2000002.0NXC/bT*xJmx*PTEyOTY3NDQzMjExNzEmcHQ9MTI5Njc*NDMyNTgyOCZwPTEyNTg*MTEmZD1BQkNOZXdzX1NGUF9Mb2NrZV9FbWJlZCZn/PTMmbz*2NjFlNDM5YTEwNWQ*ZDhlOWViNDFmNGZjYmY3ODFjMiZvZj*w.gif" /><object classid="clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=9,0,124,0" width="344" height="278" id="ABCESNWID"><param name="movie" value="http://abcnews.go.com/assets/player/walt2.6/flash/SFP_Walt_2_65.swf" /><param name="quality" value="high" /><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /><param name="allowNetworking" value="all" /><param name="flashvars" value="configUrl=http://abcnews.go.com/video/sfp/embedPlayerConfig&configId=406732&clipId=12822821&showId=12822821&gig_lt=1296744321171&gig_pt=1296744325828&gig_g=3" /><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><embed src="http://abcnews.go.com/assets/player/walt2.6/flash/SFP_Walt_2_65.swf" quality="high" allowScriptAccess="always" allowNetworking="all" allowfullscreen="true" pluginspage="http://www.adobe.com/shockwave/download/download.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="344" height="278" flashvars="configUrl=http://abcnews.go.com/video/sfp/embedPlayerConfig&configId=406732&clipId=12822821&showId=12822821&gig_lt=1296744321171&gig_pt=1296744325828&gig_g=3" name="ABCESNWID"></embed></object>Notice the man who interrupted her interview. He is not being violent. He did not start out threatening her. He used the word, "please," as he told her to leave. He is very clear about the ideas in his head and he is not a drooling, foaming-at-the-mouth, psychopathic, wild-eyed lunatic. As Amanpour became stubborn and, instead of leaving, kept asking the man why, etc., notice how the crowd flared up.The first guy is a ringleader and he had the attention of the crowd on him. If he had told her it's OK to stay at that moment, the crowd would have left her alone. Some might have even protected her from newcomers to the scene.There's a misguided idea floating around in the Objectivist world that if you change a philosophical idea, it magically transforms itself into automatic behavior in large groups of people. Some think it's an on-off button that you change by moral denunciation. The real on-off button for a mob is the ringleader and what he does.Look at any Western movie for another concrete example. Look at the cliche scene of an angry mob in front of the jailhouse wanting to lynch the prisoner. Imagine if the Sheriff came out and said, "You people believe in lynching. Well, lynching is evil. It's a violation of individual rights. I don't sanction your idea. You're disgusting. You need to learn how to think."What do you think would happen?Instead, we see the Sheriff point a double-barrel shotgun at the ringleader and say, "If you take a step closer, I swear I will introduce you to your Maker. Now go home!" And the crowd watches. After a tense moment, the ringleader stands down. Then the others start dispersing. They usually need a little prodding. "Go home, folks. There's nothing for you here." But that's just to keep a new ringleader from cropping up. The backbone of the crowd has been broken.Why do the Objectivst people who deduce reality from principles think this works differently with Muslims? They happen to be human beings, too.All you have to do is get the ringleaders to stand down and their crowds follow suit. For the good ringleaders, if you convince any one of them that evil people are perverting Islam, he will make sure his crowd knows about it. For the bad ringleaders, you have to make them stand down by force when they flare up and discredit them in the eyes of their crowds.There.That's how ideas work in practice and that's just one strategy (two, actually).Do you see any objective work for an intellectual among these elements? Like putting together some tactics? Islam haters don't. They think parroting verses of the Qur'an to each other to show how Islam is evil makes a difference.The only difference it makes is to feed their own fear and hatred. But the Muslims don't care. Not one hater reaches them and convinces them of anything. They think the haters are nuts, just like we think the fundamentalist fanatics are nuts.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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