Here for research

[Selene]

Then I have a sister-n-law, a backwoods jesus freak, who placed her children in a one room religious school after 5 yrs of homeschooling. She is just a nutcase in my opinion.

That's one of the reasons why I'm opposed to homeschooling.

Fo it can result in exactly that: religious dogmatists indoctrinating their children.

You have not mentioned your brother. What is his attitude regarding this crucial issue?

Following Ms. Xray's "logic," I can then argue that one of the reasons that I am "opposed to" compulsory, forced public school state education is that "...it can result in..." marxist dogmatists "...indoctrinating their children."

How long have you been convinced that you are surrounded by "Marxists"? Do you suspect them of lurking behind bushes and under beds?

JR

Lol. Just hyperbole Jeff.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Selene

[dansullivan]

Reidy had written in another thread,

The standard biographical sources on Rand's husband are the same as for Rand herself:

- Biographies by Barbara Branden, Jennifer Burns and Anne Heller; memoirs by Nathaniel Branden and Leonard Peikoff;

- Letters and Journals;

- 100 Voices;

- An illustrated biography from the ARI folks;

- Paxton's documentary Ayn Rand: A Sense of Life and the spinoff book.

Once again, glad to help. Barbara Branden's book is probably the best source on the question you raised: what role did he play in her writing? Branden does not attribute such a large role to him as you do (or conjecture or wonder if he did or wonder if anybody knows more about or phrase it as you will). Burns mentions the Tesla theory in passing but doesn't spend time on it. If you have new information on either topic, the world will be in your debt if you publish it.

I didn't attribute a particular size of role to anyone. I just asked about O'Connor's background. I have seen a lot about him in relation to Rand, but very little about him as a person in his own right, or about his background, other than the mention that he had briefly been an actor. Do any of your sources say what he did before that, where he lived, where he spent his childhood, what his parents did for a living, what they taught him, etc.?

[jriggenbach]

I didn't attribute a particular size of role to anyone. I just asked about O'Connor's background.

I noticed that. Some others, who know much more than I, were apparently too impatient to read what they were replying to before replying to it.

I have seen a lot about him [Frank O'Connor] in relation to Rand, but very little about him as a person in his own right, or about his background, other than the mention that he had briefly been an actor. Do any of your sources say what he did before that, where he lived, where he spent his childhood, what his parents did for a living, what they taught him, etc.?

There is information pertinent to all these questions in Barbara Branden's biography, in Anne Heller's biography, and in Jennifer Burns's book.

JR

[Reidy]

The statement

I am speculating that O'Connor, who had lived his life in this country, might have had more exposure to American industrialists than Ayn had. If so, evidence of collaboration between Ayn and Frank, even as informal discussion, would suggest that Frank's experiences could have informed Ayn's writings.

is nominally a speculation, but it announces a particular conclusion (Frank was the source for what Rand knew about American industrialists) and thus strikes me as a lot more committal than you now say it was. The biographies report that she researched the backgrounds of The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged the way authors typically do this: by reading books and interviewing people in the relevant fields. "Notes on the History of American Free Enterprise," anthologized in Capitalism, the Unknown Ideal, is a byproduct of her readings in railroad history.

The biographies give the information about Frank that you mention and quite a bit more. That's why I'm skeptical that fundamentally new information about his literary role has yet to come forth. The anecdotes in #2 and #3 are all in Barbara Branden's book. Heller is also good on the personal symbiosis between them. In her 1968 intro to The Fountainhead, Rand says that she dedicated the book to him because he talked her out of giving up at one point. This is a most important contribution, but not specifically to the content of the novel.

[Selene]

The statement

I am speculating that O'Connor, who had lived his life in this country, might have had more exposure to American industrialists than Ayn had. If so, evidence of collaboration between Ayn and Frank, even as informal discussion, would suggest that Frank's experiences could have informed Ayn's writings.

is nominally a speculation, but it announces a particular conclusion (Frank was the source for what Rand knew about American industrialists) and thus strikes me as a lot more committal than you now say it was. The biographies report that she researched the backgrounds of The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged the way authors typically do this: by reading books and interviewing people in the relevant fields. "Notes on the History of American Free Enterprise," anthologized in Capitalism, the Unknown Ideal, is a byproduct of her readings in railroad history.

The biographies give the information about Frank that you mention and quite a bit more. That's why I'm skeptical that fundamentally new information about his literary role has yet to come forth. The anecdotes in #2 and #3 are all in Barbara Branden's book. Heller is also good on the personal symbiosis between them. In her 1968 intro to The Fountainhead, Rand says that she dedicated the book to him because he talked her out of giving up at one point. This is a most important contribution, but not specifically to the content of the novel.

She also worked in an architects office for the Fountainhead and the owner of the office became the character model for Keating's boss who died.

See Heller bio,

[Xray]

Following Ms. Xray's "logic," I can then argue that one of the reasons that I am "opposed to" compulsory, forced public school state education is that "...it can result in..." marxist dogmatists "...indoctrinating their children."

But there's a difference here. For as opposed to homeschooling, should an "indoctrinator" (of whatever ideology) agitate in a public school system, his/her actions would be out in the open and therefore subject to public scrutiny.

If you uncritically advocate homeschooling you may also, without realizing it, play into the hands of those who are against the values of a democratic political system, like for example theocrats.

Ms Xray, who is a publicly paid school teacher has no problem imposing her monopoly on education at the point of a gun. As a point in fact, Germany has outlawed home schooling since the 1930's under Hitler and the Nazis.

I'm not for outlawing homeschooling.

Also, parents can send their children to private schools here in Germany.

But as for homeschooling, I'm skeptical of it for a variety of reasons, one of them being that I don't trust several groups advocating it.

On the first home page I landed, it said (no surprise to me here:)

"Erziehungsziele und Lehrinhalte, die sich immer mehr von christlichen Grundwerten entfernen, http://www.hausunterricht.org/

('Learning objectives and subjects which are removed further and furhter from Christian basic values ...

"Christian basic values" - there you have it again.

The city I work for is an excellent employer. So much for your "slave for the state" argument you always put forward.

Your opposition "statist" versus "capitalist" seems to me somewhat outdated anyway. For aren't in a modern state the politicians (at least those in the conservative camp) and the capitalists actually bedfellows?

Here in Germany, capitalists get huge tax reliefs from the very state which you posit as the "enemy".

And when politicians end their career in politics, they often consult capitalist firms for a whopping sum of money.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Xray

[Brant Gaede]

The statement

I am speculating that O'Connor, who had lived his life in this country, might have had more exposure to American industrialists than Ayn had. If so, evidence of collaboration between Ayn and Frank, even as informal discussion, would suggest that Frank's experiences could have informed Ayn's writings.

is nominally a speculation, but it announces a particular conclusion (Frank was the source for what Rand knew about American industrialists) and thus strikes me as a lot more committal than you now say it was. The biographies report that she researched the backgrounds of The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged the way authors typically do this: by reading books and interviewing people in the relevant fields. "Notes on the History of American Free Enterprise," anthologized in Capitalism, the Unknown Ideal, is a byproduct of her readings in railroad history.

The biographies give the information about Frank that you mention and quite a bit more. That's why I'm skeptical that fundamentally new information about his literary role has yet to come forth. The anecdotes in #2 and #3 are all in Barbara Branden's book. Heller is also good on the personal symbiosis between them. In her 1968 intro to The Fountainhead, Rand says that she dedicated the book to him because he talked her out of giving up at one point. This is a most important contribution, but not specifically to the content of the novel.

She also worked in an architects office for the Fountainhead and the owner of the office became the character model for Keating's boss who died.

See Heller bio,

Guy Francon didn't die.

--Brant

[Brant Gaede]

Following Ms. Xray's "logic," I can then argue that one of the reasons that I am "opposed to" compulsory, forced public school state education is that "...it can result in..." marxist dogmatists "...indoctrinating their children."

But there's a difference here. For as opposed to homeschooling, should an "indoctrinator" (of whatever ideology) agitate in a public school system, his/her actions would be out in the open and therefore subject to public scrutiny.

If you uncritically advocate homeschooling you may also, without realizing it, play into the hands of those who are against the values of a democratic political system, like for example theocrats.

Ms Xray, who is a publicly paid school teacher has no problem imposing her monopoly on education at the point of a gun. As a point in fact, Germany has outlawed home schooling since the 1930's under Hitler and the Nazis.

I'm not for outlawing homeschooling.

Also, parents can send their children to private schools here in Germany.

But as for homeschooling, I'm skeptical of it for a variety of reasons, one of them being that I don't trust several groups advocating it.

On the first home page I landed, it said (no surprise to me here:)

"Erziehungsziele und Lehrinhalte, die sich immer mehr von christlichen Grundwerten entfernen, http://www.hausunterricht.org/

('Learning objectives and subjects which are removed further and furhter from Christian basic values ...

"Christian basic values" - there you have it again.

The city I work for is an excellent employer. So much for your "slave for the state" argument you always put forward.

Your opposition "statist" versus "capitalist" seems to me somewhat outdated anyway. For aren't in a modern state the politicians (at least those in the conservative camp) and the capitalists actually bedfellows?

Here in Germany, capitalists get huge tax reliefs from the very state which you posit as the "enemy".

And when politicians end their career in politics, they often consult capitalist firms for a whopping sum of money.

Corporate fascism is not capitalism--it is not free enterprise.

The bottom line for your educational arguments is an apologia for compulsion. Pardon us if we don't let you slip your torpedoes under our barbed wire.

--Brant

[9thdoctor]

Guy Francon didn't die.

There was another partner in the firm who did die. Keating confronts him about having stolen a design and he has a break down. Then Keating became a partner. I don't remember this detail from Heller's book, though.

[jriggenbach]

If you uncritically advocate homeschooling you may also, without realizing it, play into the hands of those who are against the values of a democratic political system, like for example theocrats.

Isn't every sensible person against the values of a democratic political system?

Did I miss a meeting?

JR

[Brant Gaede]

Guy Francon didn't die.

There was another partner in the firm who did die. Keating confronts him about having stolen a design and he has a break down. Then Keating became a partner. I don't remember this detail from Heller's book, though.

He wasn't really Keating's boss. Lucius N. Heyer. Keating's actions precipitated his death. That's how he made partner. Kind of a "Fargo" moment.

--Brant

Edited March 19, 2011 by Brant Gaede

[Reidy]

This is an accurate account of what happens in the novel, but I don't see much in common between Heyer and Ely Jacques Kahn (lots of information on Google), an art deco specialist whose office Rand typed in.

[Brant Gaede]

This is an accurate account of what happens in the novel, but I don't see much in common between Heyer and Ely Jacques Kahn (lots of information on Google), an art deco specialist whose office Rand typed in.

Kahn and Francon.

--Brant

[kiaer.ts]

The city I work for is an excellent employer. So much for your "slave for the state" argument you always put forward.

The point being you don't even realize you yourself are a slave driving parasite?

[caroljane]

The city I work for is an excellent employer. So much for your "slave for the state" argument you always put forward.

The point being you don't even realize you yourself are a slave driving parasite?

A grey life-form with tentacles should not be so quick to cry parasite!

[Xray]

If you uncritically advocate homeschooling you may also, without realizing it, play into the hands of those who are against the values of a democratic political system, like for example theocrats.

Isn't every sensible person against the values of a democratic political system?

Did I miss a meeting?

JR

So, going strictly by the premises of your post, every sensible person then is to advocate the values of an undemocratic political system?

Did I miss a meeting?

Xray

Edited March 21, 2011 by Xray

[Reidy]

Another note on Heyer: Keating blackmails him over stolen goods in his china collection, not a stolen idea.

[jriggenbach]

If you uncritically advocate homeschooling you may also, without realizing it, play into the hands of those who are against the values of a democratic political system, like for example theocrats.

Isn't every sensible person against the values of a democratic political system?

Did I miss a meeting?

JR

So, going strictly by the premises of your post, every sensible person then is to advocate the values of an undemocratic political system?

Did I miss a meeting?

Xray

Still having trouble with thinking logically, I see. My condolences.

JR

[Brant Gaede]

If you uncritically advocate homeschooling you may also, without realizing it, play into the hands of those who are against the values of a democratic political system, like for example theocrats.

Isn't every sensible person against the values of a democratic political system?

Did I miss a meeting?

JR

So, going strictly by the premises of your post, every sensible person then is to advocate the values of an undemocratic political system?

Did I miss a meeting?

Xray

Still having trouble with thinking logically, I see. My condolences.

JR

Sensible and knowledgeable. The ostensible basic value of a democratic political system is primarily majority rule, altho in practice, dear Xray, it's a bunch of lawyers milking the productive public for wealth and power by passing out bribes. The U.S. started out as a republic, altho that didn't work out so well. That led to a war between the states and wars generally. Leviathan was inevitable and the Constitution a fraud filled with bones for rights' advocates. It's a work of genius; I'm not being sarcastic. Alexander Hamilton pretty much got what he wanted from it. Every four years we elect a king nominated by king-makers and the power of the corporate media. Even George Washington was one.

--Brant

blue pill, red pill: make a choice--oh!--you already did!

Edited March 21, 2011 by Brant Gaede

[kiaer.ts]

The city I work for is an excellent employer. So much for your "slave for the state" argument you always put forward.

The point being you don't even realize you yourself are a slave driving parasite?

A grey life-form with tentacles should not be so quick to cry parasite!

Are you saying that catching your own food with tentacles is the same as sucking blood from the wall of someone's bowel?

I have six shiny gold Atlas Points for the first person to identify the life form in my avatar photo.

[caroljane]

The city I work for is an excellent employer. So much for your "slave for the state" argument you always put forward.

The point being you don't even realize you yourself are a slave driving parasite?

A grey life-form with tentacles should not be so quick to cry parasite!

Are you saying that catching your own food with tentacles is the same as sucking blood from the wall of someone's bowel?

I have six shiny gold Atlas Points for the first person to identify the life form in my avatar photo.

I would like to participate in this contest but I am not feeling too well.

[kiaer.ts]

The city I work for is an excellent employer. So much for your "slave for the state" argument you always put forward.

The point being you don't even realize you yourself are a slave driving parasite?

A grey life-form with tentacles should not be so quick to cry parasite!

Are you saying that catching your own food with tentacles is the same as sucking blood from the wall of someone's bowel?

I have six shiny gold Atlas Points for the first person to identify the life form in my avatar photo.

I would like to participate in this contest but I am not feeling too well.

I would send you the answer by email, but you seem to ignore my emails: click here, Carol.

[Xray]

If you uncritically advocate homeschooling you may also, without realizing it, play into the hands of those who are against the values of a democratic political system, like for example theocrats.

Isn't every sensible person against the values of a democratic political system?

Did I miss a meeting?

JR

So, going strictly by the premises of your post, every sensible person then is to advocate the values of an undemocratic political system?

Did I miss a meeting?

Xray

Still having trouble with thinking logically, I see. My condolences.

JR

Looks like you're having trouble in seeing that my intention was to yank your 'anarchistic' chain a bit with my comment.

Still waiting for an anarchist to describe one single day in his/her Anarchia where things can work out for the group being "man" without certain decisions being made by majority rule.

But maybe you already have up your sleeve a perfectly worked-out concept for some 'Anarcho-Libertaria' (or whatever else one could call it), in which case I'd be curious to see what it looks like.

The city I work for is an excellent employer. So much for your "slave for the state" argument you always put forward.

The point being you don't even realize you yourself are a slave driving parasite?

Wasn't it you who said he got an excellent education in the public school system?

All that pigeonholing leads nowhere anyway. For the mere fact that we're individuals with our unique psychological make-up.

As for me, I work hard for my money, and enjoy fulfilling my professional duty. A duty which I see in teaching the children to become independent thinkers, and also to develop empathy and social responsibility.

Are you saying that catching your own food with tentacles is the same as sucking blood from the wall of someone's bowel?

Since nature is competely indifferent morally as to the means by which life forms sustain themselves and procreate, trying to build a moral system on positing life as the ultimate value will result in problems.

So-called parasites are very successful life forms which are perfectly well equipped by nature for living.

Life lives on other life, the animate world is "one big restaurant" as Woody Allen put it, and we humans just happen to be at the top of the food chain.

I don't work with any "life as the ultimate value" premise when it comes to ethical questions because the many life forms are in constant battle with each other.

Instead I use the Golden Rule technique. "Would you want to have done to you what you just did to Tommy?" one can ask the kid who had fun in throwing Tommy's cap over the fence.

Using the GR techniqe is simple, effective, and a great tool in helping the children to develop empathy.

I have six shiny gold Atlas Points for the first person to identify the life form in my avatar photo.

"That picture above is a cuttlefish, a type of squid, not strictly an octopus, but one of the most intelligent cephalopods."

Straight from Ted Keer's mouth here: http://www.objectivistliving.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=10246&st=20&p=127175entry127175, post # 37

So if the info in your post conforms to reality, the six shiny Gold Atlas points would go to me (thanks to OL's search function). ;)

Edited March 22, 2011 by Xray

[Philip Coates]

It looks sort of gelatinous like a kind of jellyfish. But there is also a very primitive lifeform (no offense, Ted) we studied in high school biology called the hydra which has tentacles (sometimes?) and is bowl-shaped. It lives in water and makes its living by ingesting the little particles which the currents push in and out of its gut (the open bowl.)

[kiaer.ts]

No, it's not a hydra or a jellyfish or even a cuttlefish. (You are way off, Xray, I said "above" and not "to the left" - you'll see the cuttlefish if you scroll to the top of the page.) It is not a member of any of those classes.