9thdoctor Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 There's not much to this one. A high school student in the 1960's sent a group of questions to over a hundred writers. Rand wrote back a very terse reply.http://www.theparisr...mbolism-survey/http://reason.com/bl...tudent-your-que Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 There's not much to this one. A high school student in the 1960's sent a group of questions to over a hundred writers. Rand wrote back a very terse reply.http://www.theparisr...mbolism-survey/http://reason.com/bl...tudent-your-queRand was right on this being not a definition. For the question-asker provided no definition of the term symbolism. He merely provided examples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 I wonder what she meant by "and it is not true". Hawthorne's characters can't be seen as symbolic? It's been a long time since I read "the Scarlet Letter". Did Rand read it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john42t Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 I wonder what she meant by "and it is not true". Hawthorne's characters can't be seen as symbolic? It's been a long time since I read "the Scarlet Letter". Did Rand read it?More likely that this definition can be understood.Not sure why she should be so grumpy here. It's not a definition, but I don't see how the students usage of the word symbolism is particularly ambiguous or flawed either.Somebody got an idea why she snapped? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 I wonder what she meant by "and it is not true". Hawthorne's characters can't be seen as symbolic? It's been a long time since I read "the Scarlet Letter". Did Rand read it?More likely that this definition can be understood.Not sure why she should be so grumpy here. It's not a definition, but I don't see how the students usage of the word symbolism is particularly ambiguous or flawed either.Somebody got an idea why she snapped?I can certainly understand why she did not want to provide a long analysis of her literary process to a bunch of high school students.Let them write their own essays! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis Hardin Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 There is nothing surprising about Rand’s response. Needless to say, she was reacting to the manner in which the question was posed, not to the issue of symbolism itself. In her lectures on fiction writing in 1958, she did discuss symbolism. You can read Tore Boeckmann’s edited transcript of her remarks in The Art of Fiction.Ray Bradbury’s fascinating response captures one aspect of why she may have responded so negatively. “Your own opinion is what you must search for,” Bradbury said. There is a Peter Keating quality to a survey of this kind.Beyond that, Rand undoubtedly resented the fact that she was one of 150 writers being surveyed. If McAllister had written a personal letter to her specifically addressing the symbolism in her novels, I am certain she would have responded very differently. Her generous, lengthy responses to fan letters in The Letters of Ayn Rand clearly indicates this.Not only did she think his “questionnaire” was poorly thought out (even for a 16 year old), she was angry about the fact that he would expect her to write an explanation when he gave no evidence of having read any of her works. She probably felt that his questionnaire was not only carelessly worded but disrespectful.I tend to agree with her. Her response was exactly what McAllister deserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john42t Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Beyond that, Rand undoubtedly resented the fact that she was one of 150 writers being surveyed. If McAllister had written a personal letter to her specifically addressing the symbolism in her novels, I am certain she would have responded very differently. Her generous, lengthy responses to fan letters in The Letters of Ayn Rand clearly indicates this.Not only did she think his “questionnaire” was poorly thought out (even for a 16 year old), she was angry about the fact that he would expect her to write an explanation when he gave no evidence of having read any of her works. She probably felt that his questionnaire was not only carelessly worded but disrespectful.Yes of course, I didn't think of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Dennis:I completely agree.Merely being a questioner, did not impose a duty for Ayn to respond. Also, The Art of Fiction is an excellent book for anyone to read.AdamOh no we are agreeing again...does that mean that Indianapolis may win a game this year?Post Script:I think that he deserves consideration for MVP this year because look how valuable he is! What are you impressions of Tibow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis Hardin Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Dennis:I completely agree.Merely being a questioner, did not impose a duty for Ayn to respond. Also, The Art of Fiction is an excellent book for anyone to read.AdamOh no we are agreeing again...does that mean that Indianapolis may win a game this year?Post Script:I think that he deserves consideration for MVP this year because look how valuable he is! What are you impressions of Tibow?Adam,Peyton should be given the MVP award every year. Hands down. No debate. If there was any doubt before, this year has proven it beyond all possible question.The Colts do have a shot at winning a game. Orlovsky was 30 of 37 for 353 yards and 2 TDs last week. Caldwell, one of the worst excuses for a football coach I have seen in a long time, waited much too long to replace Painter. The best thing that could come out of this catastrophic season for the Colts is if they get rid of Caldwell.It will be interesting to see what happens if the Colts draft Andrew Luck. If they trade Peyton to save some bucks, they will have earned my vote as the luckiest--and dumbest--franchise in the history of the NFL. Peyton single-handedly made them a play-off team every year, and they trade him? I don't care how good Luck is, the stupidity of any team that would trade or release Peyton after what he has done for them is unfathomable.Tebow has convinced me that there is a God, after all. That's the only way I can explain the fact that he is 6-1 since being named the starter. I just wish I could figure out why He is a Bronco's fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Dennis:I completely agree.Merely being a questioner, did not impose a duty for Ayn to respond. Also, The Art of Fiction is an excellent book for anyone to read.AdamOh no we are agreeing again...does that mean that Indianapolis may win a game this year?Post Script:I think that he deserves consideration for MVP this year because look how valuable he is! What are you impressions of Tibow?Adam,Peyton should be given the MVP award every year. Hands down. No debate. If there was any doubt before, this year has proven it beyond all possible question.The Colts do have a shot at winning a game. Orlovsky was 30 of 37 for 353 yards and 2 TDs last week. Caldwell, one of the worst excuses for a football coach I have seen in a long time, waited much too long to replace Painter. The best thing that could come out of this catastrophic season for the Colts is if they get rid of Caldwell.It will be interesting to see what happens if the Colts draft Andrew Luck. If they trade Peyton to save some bucks, they will have earned my vote as the luckiest--and dumbest--franchise in the history of the NFL. Peyton single-handedly made them a play-off team every year, and they trade him? I don't care how good Luck is, the stupidity of any team that would trade or release Peyton after what he has done for them is unfathomable.Tebow has convinced me that there is a God, after all. That's the only way I can explain the fact that he is 6-1 since being named the starter. I just wish I could figure out why He is a Bronco's fan.If you like professional football, please seek professional help.--Brantknows it all--really! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis Hardin Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 If you like professional football, please seek professional help.--Brantknows it all--really!I have been to therapist after therapist, and it didn't help. We spent all of our sessions debating who would make the play-offs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 The student's proposed definition was not in strict genus-species form.However there are other kinds of definitions: definition by ostention, definition by stipulation, definition by example and definition by analogy.Ba'al Chatzaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 I wonder what she meant by "and it is not true". Hawthorne's characters can't be seen as symbolic? It's been a long time since I read "the Scarlet Letter". Did Rand read it?I think she meant "what you wrote is wrong" (because providing examples of sybolism X is not the same as providing a definition of symbolism). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john42t Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 However there are other kinds of definitions: definition by ostention, definition by stipulation, definition by example and definition by analogy.And my computer science professor used to claim that a proof is a social process. In both cases there is no common agreement what they really are.In the case of definitions it's also two meanings in one: a) the meaning of a word and b) the way to precisely communicate that meaning.I for one am more than happy if people accept there might be a difficulty in a). Often enough someone would give or accept a definition and then would proceed to use his (or even more often her) hard-coded, unadmitted and incommunicable definition as if no other meaning was conceivable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Somebody got an idea why she snapped?Patience was probably not Ayn Rand's strong suit. Nor was she empathetic toward a sixteen-year-old genuinely seeking a helpful answer. (Howard Roark's "I'm not thinking of you" comes to mind).In addition - I agree with Dennis Hardin on this - since the writer did not signal a specific interest in Objectivism, her interest in 'educating' him on the issue of symbolism was most likely sub-zero.Dennis: Not only did she think his “questionnaire” was poorly thought out (even for a 16 year old), she was angry about the fact that he would expect her to write an explanation when he gave no evidence of having read any of her works. She probably felt that his questionnaire was not only carelessly worded but disrespectful.I tend to agree with her. Her response was exactly what McAllister deserved. Rand was factually right, but she could still have cut a sixteen-year-old youngster some slack and have responded less tersely. But since Rand probably was not the type to cut anyone slack on anything, her harsh reply is no surprise.Other authors were more polite and empathetic toward this young person; Ralph Ellison for example, who really tried to offer helpful explanations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john42t Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Patience was probably not Ayn Rand's strong suit. Nor was she empathetic toward a sixteen-year-old genuinely seeking a helpful answer.[...]Other authors were more polite and empathetic toward this young person; [...]As Dennis pointed out, I don't believe that 16-year-old was genuinely seeking a helpful answer, and she had been empathetic to others who were seeking that. Those others weren't prompted by their teachers to do so and have read her novels.Let's face it, this was a school project, wasn't it? So a 16 year old was asked to spam writers - or something to that end.So what the student was seeking was to comply with the irrational demands of public schooling. What the teachers were seeking was to look as if they teach something in order to justify their sustenance.What the other authors were likely to seek was to look good in a climate where that's all that counts, although probably not all of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 And my computer science professor used to claim that a proof is a social process. The word "proof" (it really means test) is a derivation of a proposition according to agreed upon rules. For example a proof in non-Euclidean geometry is based on the axioms of the geometry which are not a priori. Of course logic is used to go from one step to the next. But "proof" can also pertain to inductive argument or demonstration which means the the conclusion is sufficiently probable to justify holding it. But what Is "sufficiently probable". That is not a logical absolute, rather it is a convention which involves an agreement among parties.Ba'al Chatzaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john42t Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 The word "proof" (it really means test) is a derivation of a proposition according to agreed upon rules. For example a proof in non-Euclidean geometry is based on the axioms of the geometry which are not a priori. Of course logic is used to go from one step to the next. But "proof" can also pertain to inductive argument or demonstration which means the the conclusion is sufficiently probable to justify holding it. But what Is "sufficiently probable". That is not a logical absolute, rather it is a convention which involves an agreement among parties.Meaning that if you're alone in the world, there can be no proof of anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Patience was probably not Ayn Rand's strong suit. Nor was she empathetic toward a sixteen-year-old genuinely seeking a helpful answer.[...]Other authors were more polite and empathetic toward this young person; [...]So what the student was seeking was to comply with the irrational demands of public schooling. What the teachers were seeking was to look as if they teach something in order to justify their sustenance.What the other authors were likely to seek was to look good in a climate where that's all that counts, although probably not all of them.John,I am curious - is it only public school teachers who merely want to "look as if they're teaching something" without actually doing it, or is this an intrinsic characteristic of most teachers, in your view - even in private schools?There is in fact no such thing as teaching. There is only the facilitation and enabling of learning. In this case I would give the teacher the benefit of the doubt and assume she thought the students might learn something from conducting such a survey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Rand or NB mentioned "The Scarlett Letter" once.Rand's letter back was terse but she must have gone to the trouble of stamping it and sending it back.If I had gotten a letter from Rand I would have sung, "C" is for cookie, good enough for me!"The Cookie Monster. Friend of Oscar Rand the Grouch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john42t Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 John,I am curious - is it only public school teachers who merely want to "look as if they're teaching something" without actually doing it, or is this an intrinsic characteristic of most teachers, in your view - even in private schools?It's in fact most teachers.Few schools are private these days in the sense I mean. That sense would be: Entirely funded by tuition, all of which funded by the parents themselves rather than government-funded scholarships, no government intervention in the teachers qualification requirements, no government intervention in the curriculum.In the 19th century, England had private schools. Today, there's just shades of gray. And private, independent teachers, for example in music.I hammer on the public part because it's the idea of public education that dragged the private ones down. Not so much the institutions as the idea.I do believe there are good teachers, I had some. My history teacher at a public school, my maths professor at a public university.Their bitterness was proof of their awareness of their situation. Trapped in a system that allows no distinction, there was nothing they could do to stop the descend. But it was their choice, and it is their price to pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Angela:I tremble at getting between two (2) Germans arguing a point, but once more into the breech breach!Underlying Angela's, and others, comments about Ayn's "harshness" in her answer, is the premise that is crippling students across the board today at all levels of "efucation."This is the premise that the "students feelings and self-esteem" are the paramount purpose of teaching and education. Everyone gets a cupcake and everyone gets a trophy.Then, having crippled the little fledgling, they kick it out into the big bad business world to survive, which invariably ends the fledgling into a life of unhappiness, self doubt and therapy.AdamPost Script:Out of curiosity, Germany, having lost two (2) wars in the last century is now the dominant economic power in Europe. Hmmm, the Mouse that Roared comes to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Angela:I tremble at getting between two (2) Germans arguing a point, but once more into the breech! Adam dear, are you unusually distracted lately? It;s breach. Also I noticed recently you wrote "fair for "fare" and used "criteria" as a singular. Most unlike you.Solicitously,A Concerned FriendPS although I am not surprised that breeches would naturally leap first into your mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Meaning that if you're alone in the world, there can be no proof of anything.One can be all alone and go through a checklist to see if one has made errors or not. One one is alone, proof is doing a kind of checklist, not trying to convince another party.Before I believe a theorem I construct a proof for it to make sure I have not made a mistake in thinking the statement of the theorem to be true. When I do a calculation I "prove" the calculation by doing it a different way to see if I get the same answer.Way back when, when I flew solo I went through the pre-takeoff checklist to "prove" that I was ready to take off.Ba'al Chatzaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Carol:Yes, quite distracted by a woman, football and politics. However, as I typed in "breech" today, a little voice in the back of my mind said, "That does not look quite right."Unclearly, I thought I was going to completely agree with you on my improper use of "criteria" which was unexcusable. Well, not so much as I thought: cri·te·ri·onnoun \krī-ˈtir-ē-ən also krə-\plural -ria also cri·te·ri·ons Definition of CRITERION1: a standard on which a judgment or decision may be based 2: a characterizing mark or trait See criterion defined for English-language learners »See criterion defined for kids » Usage Discussion of CRITERIONThe plural criteria has been used as a singular for over half a century <let me now return to the third criteria — R. M. Nixon> <that really is the criteria — Bert Lance>. Many of our examples, like the two foregoing, are taken from speech. But singular criteria is not uncommon in edited prose, and its use both in speech and writing seems to be increasing. Only time will tell whether it will reach the unquestioned acceptability of agenda. Examples of CRITERIONWhat were the criteria used to choose the winner?<one criterion for grading these essays will be their conformity to the rules of traditional grammar>There is really only one criterion for a grab bag of culinary facts and anecdotes like this: It has to make you look up occasionally and remark, “Hey! I never knew that.” —Laura Shapiro, New York Times Book Review, 25 Dec. 1994[+]more Origin of CRITERIONGreek kritērion, from krinein to judge, decide — more at certainFirst Known Use: 1622As to the fair for fare error, I am often guilty of that since I "here" the word in my ear and sometimes do not "sea" the word on the computer as "eye" scan the page.But thank you for making me aware.Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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