Galt's Gulch in the modern world

[BaalChatzaf]

Where could Galt's gulch be built or located given the current state of technology? Could it even be built for fashioned. There is no place on earth that can truly be hidden, except deep underground. Or diffused in plain sight, a virtual Galt's Gulch if you will.

Also the basic premise that only a few hundred or a few thousand people are what makes the technology of the world operate is flawed. There are millions capable of doing the job, perhaps tens of millions. A Strike such as Rand proposed does not sound feasible.

The strategy of undoing or thwarting the current tyranny would have to be quite different than the strategy proposed by Rand. I wonder what it could be.....

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Selene]

Bob:

It would start with folks merely taking low paying jobs with no responsibility to think or supervise others. I would pick Congressman except for the high pay.

Second, any work would be private and amongst our own network. The difficult part would be the exchanges of value between each other.

The rise of the barter exchanges and movements of the last fifty (50) years of the 20th century were savaged by the IRS rulings.

Barter Exchanges

Bartering is the trading of one product or service for another. Usually there is no exchange of cash. Barter may take place on an informal one-on-one basis between individuals and businesses, or it can take place on a third party basis through a barter exchange company. A barter exchange is any person or organization with members or clients that contract with each other (or with the barter exchange) to jointly trade or barter property or services. The term does not include arrangements that provide solely for the informal exchange of similar services on a noncommercial basis.

Unlike one-on-one bartering, members of exchanges are not obligated to barter or purchase directly from a seller. Instead, when a barter exchange member sells a product or a service to another member, their barter account is credited for the fair market value of the sale. When a barter exchange member buys, the account is debited for the fair market value of the purchase.

Internet-based Barter

The Internet provides a new medium for the barter exchange industry. Pure Internet-based barter companies differ from traditional, organized trade exchanges in that they do not have a physical office. In modern Internet barter exchanges, there is an agreement or process in place to value goods and services exchanged, which is facilitated by the barter exchange for a fee. A barter exchange functions primarily as the organizer of a marketplace where members buy and sell products and services among themselves.

Trade Dollars

Barter exchanges have their own unit of exchange, usually known as barter or trade dollars. Trade dollars or barter dollars are valued in U.S. currency for the purposes of information returns. Trade dollars allow barter to take place between parties when one party may not have a simultaneous need or desire for the goods or services of the other members. Barter exchanges act as the bookkeeper for keeping track of trade dollars that participants accumulate. Earning trade or barter dollars through a barter exchange is considered taxable income, just as if your product or service was sold for cash.

Requirement for Barter Exchanges to File Information Returns

Barter exchanges are required to issue

Form 1099-B

Proceeds from Broker and Barter Exchange Transactions, annually to their clients or members and to the Internal Revenue Service. Learn more about

information return filing requirements

for barter exchanges.

Adam

[Philip Coates]

Subject: Most Misguided Idea I've Heard Lately

The collectivist-statist-altruists would love nothing better than for some of the productive, energetic, resistant to them members of society to withdraw from active participation in events, to go "on strike" financially - ehtically - politically.

Nothing rewards evil more than when good men remain silent (or bail out, which has many similar effects). Then there would be less strength opposing their takeover. Less of a vigorous determined opposition to the march toward socialism or fascism.

Then five, ten, or fifteen years from now the victors clearly would come after the strikers. Hunt them down in their caves or South Sea Islands and put them back in chains. Kill them or make them pay double tax for the time they were away.

Did you think they would leave them alone as a model or inspiration of 'another way to live'? Was there going to be an impenetrable anti-matter force field?

Get real.

(Since Galt's Gulch still needs some sodding, grading, and topsoil replacement, let's start by modestly having them all move to New Hampshire -- howzzat working out for ya? -- so the Tea Party oppositions will be weakened in 49 other states and so NH can more easily be outvoted 49:1, struck down by the courts and regulatory agencies, etc., etc., etc.)

[Selene]

Hunt them down in their caves or South Sea Islands and put them back in chains. Kill them or make them pay double tax for the time they were away.

Mr. Coates:

Robert stated a new premise:

The strategy of undoing or thwarting the current tyranny would have to be quite different than the strategy proposed by Rand.

Therefore, there would be no caves or South Sea Islands.

My statement was essentially "hiding" in plain sight.

Therefore, your refutation did not address either his post, or, mine.

Adam

[BaalChatzaf]

Therefore, there would be no caves or South Sea Islands.

My statement was essentially "hiding" in plain sight.

Therefore, your refutation did not address either his post, or, mine.

Adam

I think, that is the way to do it. A "virtual" Galt's Gulch. Since it is not physically hidden it cannot be detected by radar or radiation detection. The only way to penetrate a virtual citadel is with a mind reading machine and no such thing exists.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Selene]

Therefore, there would be no caves or South Sea Islands.

My statement was essentially "hiding" in plain sight.

Therefore, your refutation did not address either his post, or, mine.

Adam

I think, that is the way to do it. A "virtual" Galt's Gulch. Since it is not physically hidden it cannot be detected by radar or radiation detection. The only way to penetrate a virtual citadel is with a mind reading machine and no such thing exists.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Precisely.

[caroljane]

.."with salvation's walls surrounded,

thou may'st smile on all thy foes.

..since of Zion's city,

I through grace a member am,

Let the world deride or pity,

I will glory in thy name.

Fading is the world's best pleasure, all its boasted pomp and show.

Solid joys, and lasting treasure,

None but Zion's children know."

-John Newton, 1779

[Selene]

.."with salvation's walls surrounded,

thou may'st smile on all thy foes.

..since of Zion's city,

I through grace a member am,

Let the world deride or pity,

I will glory in thy name.

Fading is the world's best pleasure, all its boasted pomp and show.

Solid joys, and lasting treasure,

None but Zion's children know."

-John Newton, 1779

Amazing Grace...

Wonderful human being...as Glenn Beck would say, he can point to his pivot point.

Wasn't his brother named Fig?

[caroljane]

.."with salvation's walls surrounded,

thou may'st smile on all thy foes.

..since of Zion's city,

I through grace a member am,

Let the world deride or pity,

I will glory in thy name.

Fading is the world's best pleasure, all its boasted pomp and show.

Solid joys, and lasting treasure,

None but Zion's children know."

-John Newton, 1779

Amazing Grace...

Wonderful human being...as Glenn Beck would say, he can point to his pivot point.

Wasn't his brother named Fig?

If he wasn't he should have been. That family knew how to feed the senses.

"Who can faint when such a river

Ever flows, our thirst to assuage..?"

And that's without the glorious musical accompaniment courtesy Haydn.

[caroljane]

note to above: this hymn is usually sung to the tune from the Emperor Quartet, most often heard in the German national anthem.

[Selene]

note to above: this hymn is usually sung to the tune from the Emperor Quartet, most often heard in the German national anthem.

Well there are four musidians in this one, so I guess it qualifies...

[Philip Coates]

>"The strategy of undoing or thwarting the current tyranny would have to be quite different than the strategy proposed by Rand."herefore, there would be no caves or South Sea Islands. My statement was essentially "hiding" in plain sight. Therefore, your refutation did not address either his post, or, mine. [Adam]

Yes it does.

It addresses that kind of 'strike' as well.

You are fousing on concretes like cave, a force field, an island ans taking them too literally. The principle is this: Your only choice is to fight them in your own self-interest. If you simply try to duck them, to hide *in any manner* you are simply offering less resistance, emboldening and strengthening them, making it easier for them to win. Let me restate the principle in another way:

This ain't the dark ages or sci-fi. You can't "hide" in a way that you can't be found given modern technology, informers, political organization or that they won't have incentive to root out the last 'examples' of people who get away.

If that is not clear, you simply don't know how the world works. (It's not as if the 20th century dictatorships did not provide enough examples for you.) Let me repeat and underline:

Nothing rewards evil more than when good men remain silent (or bail out, which has many similar effects). Then there would be less strength opposing their takeover. Less of a vigorous determined opposition to the march toward socialism or fascism.

[caroljane]

note to above: this hymn is usually sung to the tune from the Emperor Quartet, most often heard in the German national anthem.

Well there are four musidians in this one, so I guess it qualifies...

Adam this was simply wonderful. It didn't have the first movement where the referenced tune is but so what. It made me think that is what it was like when the string quartet was the garage band or corner do-wop group. I loved the group interplay and the way the cellist looked exasperated nearly all the time. And the sound was sublime,

Thanks.

[Peter]

If you move right on the keyboard and start typing Mr. Coates’ name you get “{jo;”

Phil wrote:

Nothing rewards evil more than when good men remain silent (or bail out, which has many similar effects). Then there would be less strength opposing their takeover. Less of a vigorous determined opposition to the march toward socialism or fascism.

end quote

There have been recent articles about how companies are hiring younger people who need less or no medical insurance (and a few places like big stores that hire healthier, old people on Medicare who require no medical insurance. Our local Harris Teeter grocery store in slower, lower Delaware is a prime example: everybody has gray or white hair!)

In the office work place, the younger people who are hired are in a “keep my job at all costs mode,” suspicious of each other, and suck up to the boss. That causes less socialization, exchange of opinion, and fewer lunch breaks together.

How to survive the coming crash? Think clearly, unemotionally, and rationally about this. Don’t bail out. Keep our strength. Much can be done in rural or small town locations if there is little or no ghetto-ization on the other side of the tracks. The truth is sometimes cruel, but there it is. Know how to use your gun. Stock up food. Keep active in society and politics. That is the new "Going Galt." Instead, "Go Gingrich."

Peter

[blackhorse]

If i had to pick a locale in the USA for Galt's Gulch, based on various economic and other standards, I would choose the Flathead

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flathead_County,_Montana

[Peter]

Excellent, BlackHorse. Flat Head, Montana sounds idyllic at least in every season but winter. North Dakota is having a Renaissance with its new oil industry. Like Alaska, the pay is good and a job is practically guaranteed.

Did it say Native Americans were the biggest minority? It’s time for a new Tony Hillerman, injun detective novel to come out. I read them all. Say, isn’t Blackhorse a Native American name? I think I asked that before but others might appreciate an answer.

Peter

[blackhorse]

They are the biggest minority in Montana, though most of them in NW Montana live in Browning which is a few hours away. Blackhorse is an indian name, though that is not where I get the moniker from.

[Jonathan]

This ain't the dark ages or sci-fi. You can't "hide" in a way that you can't be found given modern technology, informers, political organization or that they won't have incentive to root out the last 'examples' of people who get away.

Bin Laden hid for ten years despite massive efforts by the US government to find him, and he wasn't caught because of "modern technology, informers or political organizations," but because he maintained active contact with the outside world -- he tried to continue his political activities via a known-to-the-US courier. If he had gone into total hiding, he'd still be alive.

If that is not clear, you simply don't know how the world works.

I think that my favorite thing about you, Phil, is that when discussing hypothetical or speculative topics, you assert that only your reasoning is sound and is based on "how the world works." Yes, Phil has taken a few seconds to review his very limited knowledge of a given subject (say, military technology and how it can or cannot be fooled or evaded, or, say, what it takes to cast and produce a movie in a short period of time on a limited budget), and his having briefly thought about it from his state of ignorance unerringly results in a conclusion which represents the absolute truth of what is or is not possible!

Hilarious.

J

[Xray]

I think, that is the way to do it. A "virtual" Galt's Gulch. Since it is not physically hidden it cannot be detected by radar or radiation detection. The only way to penetrate a virtual citadel is with a mind reading machine and no such thing exists.

Ba'al Chatzaf

"Create your own virtual Galt's Gulch". How's that for business idea to put an Objectivist computer game on the market?

The Objectivist NIOF answer to World of Warcraft, so to speak .

But kidding aside, is it really desirable to live in any closed community? I'd miss the variety of people from all walks of life, and also the exchange and debates with those who don't share my views.

[caroljane]

I think, that is the way to do it. A "virtual" Galt's Gulch. Since it is not physically hidden it cannot be detected by radar or radiation detection. The only way to penetrate a virtual citadel is with a mind reading machine and no such thing exists.

Ba'al Chatzaf

"Create your own virtual Galt's Gulch". How's that for business idea to put an Objectivist computer game on the market?

The Objectivist NIOF answer to World of Warcraft, so to speak .

But kidding aside, is it really desirable to live in any closed community? I'd miss the variety of people from all walks of life, and also the exchange and debates with those who don't share my views.

I think, that is the way to do it. A "virtual" Galt's Gulch. Since it is not physically hidden it cannot be detected by radar or radiation detection. The only way to penetrate a virtual citadel is with a mind reading machine and no such thing exists.

Ba'al Chatzaf

"Create your own virtual Galt's Gulch". How's that for business idea to put an Objectivist computer game on the market?

The Objectivist NIOF answer to World of Warcraft, so to speak .

But kidding aside, is it really desirable to live in any closed community? I'd miss the variety of people from all walks of life, and also the exchange and debates with those who don't share my views.

Exactly. This is what confronts everyone who finishes reading Atlas Shrugged. Do I want to help build, and live in, this world of first-handers and heroes?

[Xray]

<...>

But kidding aside, is it really desirable to live in any closed community? I'd miss the variety of people from all walks of life, and also the exchange and debates with those who don't share my views.

Exactly. This is what confronts everyone who finishes reading Atlas Shrugged. Do I want to help build, and live in, this world of first-handers and heroes?

Antother thing I'd have problems with: where is the place of "little whims" is such a community where the mental imperative to constantly pass moral judgment both on oneself and others is so over-present?

What about those 'fully conscious irrational actions' people like to indulge themselves in now and then?

Just think about the 'shoe tic' many ladies have, with countless shoes ending up cluttering their homes.

I have another 'tic': buying tableware. Two days ago, I bought myself a very nice tea service that I don't really need (we already have two other very nice tea services). It was pure appetence on my part. I wanted it. Although I bought it with my own money, it does not qualify as a rational purchase, given that we already have those other two services (one of which we hardly ever use at all). My DH told me that too, and I had no rational counter argument against it .

I then tried to convince him of the beauty of the new service and since he liked it better than the one we hardly ever use, he finally 'gave in' to this whim of mine.

I too give in to his whims frequently; for example when he comes home with yet another jazz CD he "absolutely needed" (i.e. "wanted") for his already large collection. (I have always regretted that I don't seem to have an ear for jazz).

Would such 'compromising on mutual whims' be allowed in the Gulch?

But isn't it those little whims and 'irrationalities' that can add fun and flavor to life? Aware of my own whims, I also tend to cut my fellow men slack on theirs. I just don't want to pass moral judgment all the time.

[Philip Coates]

> Two days ago, I bought myself a very nice tea service that I don't really need (we already have two other very nice tea services). It was pure appetence on my part. I wanted it. [Xray]

Nothing wrong with that at all. Or shoes or whatever if you can afford them. And you're right that Oists have a tendency to a kind of judgmental puritanism about any values that are not theirs. Peikoff tried to correct this at one time with his discussion of "optional values" and not everyone having to like the same things, IIRC. Perhaps in UO, we'll see when it comes out assuming Mike B hasn't edited it out.

In fact, it's actually -good- to have "whims" of this kinds. It's not at all whim-worship in the sense Oism is opposed to.

Just a lot of moronic Objectivist puritans.

> is it really desirable to live in any closed community? I'd miss the variety of people from all walks of life, and also the exchange and debates with those who don't share my views. [Xray]

Exactly. If I were surrounded by some of the Oism pants down around their ankles camp followers who post most frequently on certain boards, I'd have to jump off a bridge.

[Peter]

Angela wrote:

Another thing I'd have problems with: where is the place of "little whims" is such a community where the mental imperative to constantly pass moral judgment both on oneself and others is so over-present?

end quote

Atlantis as “over-present” sounds like a small town mentality at best or a crowded trailer park at worst. I think modern Objectivists are much more libertarian with the small, personal stuff and say live, and let live.

X-ray wrote:

I just don't want to pass moral judgment all the time.

end quote

Select your environment without becoming predominantly a recluse. I like venues that may cost a bit more, because it lessens the annoyance from people. My biggest adventure lately has been to take the train from Princeton New Jersey to Broadway. I am trying to convince my wife to go see the revival of Cole Porter’s “Anything Goes” with Sutton Foster, but that train ride with the commuting riff raff is a challenge. She wants to drive to the Meadowlands and take a shorter bus ride to Broadway. The motel in Princeton costs about half as much. Decisions, decisions.

Peter