Michael Stuart Kelly Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Not just Galt sprang into being perfect.How about Roark?Here is a very wise paragraph from The Benefits and Hazards of the Philosophy of Ayn Rand: A Personal Statement by Nathaniel Branden:In preparation for this presentation, I re-read the opening chapter of The Fountainhead. It really is a great book. I noticed something in the first chapter I never noticed before. Consider these facts: The hero has just been expelled from school, he is the victim of injustice, he is misunderstood by virtually everyone, and he himself tends to find other people puzzling and incomprehensible. He is alone; he has no friends. There is no one with whom he can share his inner life or values. So far, with the possible exception of being expelled from school, this could be a fairly accurate description of the state of the overwhelming majority of adolescents. There is one big difference: Howard Roark gives no indication of being bothered by any of it. He is serenely happy within himself. For average teenagers, this condition is agony. They read The Fountainhead and see this condition, not as a problem to be solved, but as a condition they must learn to be happy about -- as Roark is. All done without drugs! What a wish-fulfillment that would be! What a dream come true! Don't bother learning to understand anyone. Don't bother working at making yourself better understood. Don't try to see whether you can close the gap of your alienation from others, at least from some others, just struggle for Roark's serenity -- which Rand never tells you how to achieve. This is an example of how The Fountainhead could be at once a source of great inspiration and a source of great guilt, for all those who do not know how to reach Roark's state. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginny Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Yup. Psychology wasn't the lady's strong point. But that's okay. She had other strengths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 This is a terrific excerpt, which I never saw before. It shows the measure of how Branden learned and grew, from the springboard of Randian ideals, and saw how others could do so too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginny Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 That tape is excellent. He did grow. But I think he had no choice. With or without the break, I don't think he would have survived much longer. From his description in his book about meeting Patrecia, and although he considered her not too intellectual, she was a breath of fresh air in his life that he couldn't give up. I don't think the Collective was big on fresh air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 There is one big difference: Howard Roark gives no indication of being bothered by any of it.He is serenely happy within himself.For average teenagers, this condition is agony.Thank you Michael.That never hit me the way it did today. I felt peer pressure like that, however, I always felt comfortable with myself and walking alone with my decisions, good ones, as well as bad ones.Looking back, I had some bouts of questioning whether I should sacrifice my beliefs to "be accepted," and, when it came down to the decision point, I always trusted my own judgement.Guess I was fortunate to have a strong mind.A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Adam,The thing is, I'm not sure Rand herself had Roark's kind of serenity when she was that age. I wasn't there, but, since she was a human being, and the stage of teenage angst is universal to healthy individuals, its a pretty good assumption she had her own inner turmoil to deal with.And don't forget what the sex hormones do to teenagers. I don't know about you, but I was lucky I didn't hump a wall back when I was that age. Terribly confusing... MichaelEDIT: Rand's rough sex came from somewhere... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Adam,The thing is, I'm not sure Rand herself had Roark's kind of serenity when she was that age. I wasn't there, but, since she was a human being, and the stage of teenage angst is universal to healthy individuals, its a pretty good assumption she had her own inner turmoil to deal with.And don't forget what the sex hormones do to teenagers. I don't know about you, but I was lucky I didn't hump a wall back when I was that age. Terribly confusing... MichaelEDIT: Rand's rough sex came from somewhere... Agreed.That was a difficult piece of self discipline for me. I can remember my first "soul kiss" in a movie theatre at 15. I also can absolutely remember my first full sexual romp at 16 in my room in my parent's house. Thank heaven for condoms and the knowledge that my parents imparted to me about protection. When you have great parents, you need to heed their advice on certain issues lol.A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 I had great parents, and they gave me no advice or information on this aspect of life. My mother did say a lot about it once when I was seven, but it meant nothing to me and she was not herself at the time. I was not alone either; my best friend and I spent lots of time trying to figure it out ... I was actually fifteen when I realized how the bio facts went together ... not joking. My friend got pregnant at seventeen.. she was the ditz of our group and is still vague about how it happened.Carolex sheltered only child Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 I had great parents, and they gave me no advice or information on this aspect of life. My mother did say a lot about it once when I was seven, but it meant nothing to me and she was not herself at the time. I was not alone either; my best friend and I spent lots of time trying to figure it out ... I was actually fifteen when I realized how the bio facts went together ... not joking. My friend got pregnant at seventeen.. she was the ditz of our group and is still vague about how it happened.Carolex sheltered only childI always tried to stay away from the "ditzes"...even if they were hot and available and there were more than enough opportunities... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 lol you were smart, her husband is still a little bewildered at being married to her for 40 years, she is just as ditzy as ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Becoming a fully rational human is a choice,A...Not for John Galt. He was born that way.Speaking of biting a head off and posting...Ha, ha. I admit it. I'm a self-serving hypocrite.--Brantevil exposed but not shriveling in the sun: potent, potent, potent!(contradictions don't exist?--yeah, right)what?--I only made a "mistake"?--that's no fun--for us actors being evul is fun--but I'd do it again; I'd do it for funput me on trial: all my posts on OL (if I can only figure out how to print them out): "The defense rests."pulling "a Phryne in court" (I believe the story) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 pulling "a Phryne in court" (I believe the story)We don't need to see your man-boobs.J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 pulling "a Phryne in court" (I believe the story)We don't need to see your man-boobs.JIf you don't stop topping me I'm going to stop setting you up!--Brantgetting really annoyed; it's a self-esteem thingy (I've got enough "pseudo" now I need more of the other to balance it out ["pseudo" is a noun, right?]) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 pulling "a Phryne in court" (I believe the story)We don't need to see your man-boobs.JGeez, had to look this one up just to follow you two ...get a room!A copy of the Aphrodite of Knidos. Phryne is said to be the model of the original.Athenaeus provides many anecdotes about Phryne. He praises her beauty, writing that on the occasion of the festivals of the Eleusinia and Poseidonia she would let down her hair and step naked into the sea. This would have inspired the painter Apelles to create his famous picture of Aphrodite Anadyomene (Ἀφροδίτη Ἀναδυομένη, also portrayed at times as Venus Anadyomene).Supposedly the sculptor Praxiteles, who was also her lover, used her as the model for the statue of the Aphrodite of Knidos.[3]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phryne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Adam, I took it out of The Fountainhead. It was Toohey's response to Roark's defense in the Stoddard trial. "The defense rests" quotes Roark at the trial.--Brantwe did get a room, now with you here it's getting kinky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginny Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Carol, i was older than 15. Embarrassing. But I had a system. since I grew up believing President and Mrs. Kennedy was god-like, and since I couldn't picture Jackie having sex, I decided the information I had must be wrong. how's that for sex education? Blessed be the libraries and their books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Yes, indeed. I was over 40 when I finally faced the fact that my parents must have done it... but only once! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 It's getting pretty loud in that room since Adam went in...do you suppose they're all right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Stuttle Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 (edited) Possibly [bob K] didn't see either of my posts about his potshot, or the post where I challenged him when he made the same irresponsible charge earlier. I think he sometimes posts on a thread and then doesn't look to see if anyone's replied to what he said.His describing those people as "strange" does irritate me, and I hope he won't do it again. If he does and I notice, I'll correct him again.Funny thing is, he was often quite complimentary to Barbara when she was posting here, and then he lumps her, willy-nilly, amongst the "strange people" of Rand's circle.My hunch is that he's simply thinking of Peikoff and not pausing to consider who the others were.EllenWhat about Mary Ann? Did you know her? I see her as being more like Peikoff than the others. Maybe not to the point of being "strange," but at least severely "icky."JI didn't know her. I only met her once, at Allan Blumenthal's recital in spring 1970.She seemed to me just a not very smart person who was way impressed by Rand. According to an interview with her conducted by Susan Ludel back when the ARI publication was a mimeographed-from-typewriter-copy job, she (Mary Ann) became close friends with Leonard Peikoff and was taught Objectivism by Leonard. He was assigned by Rand to the project of teaching Mary Ann. [*]Ellen* ADD: The philosophy wasn't called Objectivism yet. And it wasn't just Mary Ann to whom Leonard gave lectures on the philosophy. See post #163. Edited October 23, 2013 by Ellen Stuttle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellen Stuttle Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 "Volitional consciousness": that's when you decide to go to bed, turning it off by going to sleep. If the alarm clock wakes you up it's because that's the time you decided to turn your consciousness back on. [....]Why is there a large market in sleeping medications if consciousness can simply be turned off? And what relationship does an alarm clock waking you up have to Rand's statement delivered by Galt?I wonder how long it's been since you read Galt's Speech.Ellen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 "Volitional consciousness": that's when you decide to go to bed, turning it off by going to sleep. If the alarm clock wakes you up it's because that's the time you decided to turn your consciousness back on. [....]Why is there a large market in sleeping medications if consciousness can simply be turned off? And what relationship does an alarm clock waking you up have to Rand's statement delivered by Galt?I wonder how long it's been since you read Galt's Speech.EllenI don't think I would relieve your frustration by answering your ad hominem question dressed as a statement, ironically not a fallacy. (Second time already today I've used the ironic.) In any case, there's a kind of beauty in mystery destroyed by reality and I'll not visit that upon you. (Squirm, squirm.)--BrantI first read it in 1963--use that to fire up your brain cells (I've begun to have senior moments: yesterday I called my insurance company for a tow instead of AAA) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDS Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 "Volitional consciousness": that's when you decide to go to bed, turning it off by going to sleep. If the alarm clock wakes you up it's because that's the time you decided to turn your consciousness back on. [....]Why is there a large market in sleeping medications if consciousness can simply be turned off? And what relationship does an alarm clock waking you up have to Rand's statement delivered by Galt?I wonder how long it's been since you read Galt's Speech.EllenI wonder how long it's been since anybody read Galt's Speech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 I wonder how long it's been since anybody read Galt's Speech. LOL..Hell, I skipped it the first time I read Atlas and I would say it has been at least four (4) years since I've read and at least a decade prior to that that I read it.So that would be two (2) times in the two (2) decades which is more than enough to keep my small "o"bjectist card current and in good standing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDS Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 I wonder how long it's been since anybody read Galt's Speech. LOL..Hell, I skipped it the first time I read Atlas and I would say it has been at least four (4) years since I've read and at least a decade prior to that that I read it.So that would be two (2) times in the two (2) decades which is more than enough to keep my small "o"bjectist card current and in good standing.That's twice more than most people... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 I wonder how long it's been since anybody read Galt's Speech. LOL..Hell, I skipped it the first time I read Atlas and I would say it has been at least four (4) years since I've read and at least a decade prior to that that I read it.So that would be two (2) times in the two (2) decades which is more than enough to keep my small "o"bjectist card current and in good standing.That's twice more than most people...I (me) think (believe) that I've read (perused) it four (4) (IV) (the integer between three (3) and five (5)) times (instances) during my lifetime (the years that I've been alive).J (Jonathan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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