Atlantis

[Peter]

If you live in America then the supreme law of the land is the Constitution. No State, county, city, or town government can contradict the Constitution. The retaliatory use of force is given strictly to the Government under the Constitution, but the Federal Government delegates that use to States, municipalities, even private police and security forces, and to individuals in an emergency AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT VIOLATE THE CONSTITUTION.

When the Federal Government exceeds or fails the Constitution that is when the problems occur. The over regulation of interstate commerce, EPA Regulations, or the failure of the Government to secure the borders is when a laissez-faire municipality MUST conform to a law or regulation that should be unconstitutional. That is not right. That is the way it is.

States also vary in their restrictive laws, so we need a fundamental change in the Federal Government and the Constitution needs to be amended to stop our loss of individual rights. Hopefully the Republican Candidate will be the person we need along with a Tea Party House and Senate to be a catalyst for improvement.

Talking of a Utopia within the territory of the United States is premature conjecture. As I said before, anyone can start their own laissez-faire neighborhood, which can become a town by buying land, gathering like minded people, and not incorporating. By not incorporating you are insuring that restrictive town laws will not be enacted in the future. Yet you are still within the confines of a restrictive Federal, State and County Government.

There are “freer” bohemian neighborhoods like Soho within cities, where freedom loving people can immigrate.

There are freer places where rich people “rule,” their estates and even islands. They have their own security forces and tall fences. Inside those compounds they live like Mick Jagger.

Peter Taylor

[Selene]

The retaliatory use of force is given strictly to the Government under the Constitution, but the Federal Government delegates that use to States, municipalities, even private police and security forces, and to individuals in an emergency AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT VIOLATE THE CONSTITUTION.

Mr. Taylor:

Would you kindly point out the specific section of the US Constitution where the above concept is "given."

Adam

[Peter]

Section 8. And remember, the Constitution does not need to state, “and no one else can do this.” I put the entire section at the end. There are numerous places in the Constitution and there are interpretations and rulings of the Supreme Court. Rand’s essay Government is in the tradition of explaining the Constitution.

Section 8 reads in part:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; . . . To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

end quote

And no one else can do this. 8 -)

Peter Taylor

Section. 8.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

<a name="1.8.18">To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

[Selene]

Section 8. And remember, the Constitution does not need to state, “and no one else can do this.” I put the entire section at the end. There are numerous places in the Constitution and there are interpretations and rulings of the Supreme Court. Rand’s essay Government is in the tradition of explaining the Constitution.

Section 8 reads in part:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; . . . To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

end quote

And no one else can do this. 8 -)

Peter Taylor

Section. 8.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

<a name="1.8.18">To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Mr. Taylor:

The retaliatory use of force is given strictly to the Government

There is no "strictly" in the sections you posted in terms of domestic retaliatory force.

[Peter]

Adam wrote:

There is no "strictly" in the sections you posted in terms of domestic retaliatory force.

end quote

?Domestico? ?Que pasa? I know the armed forces are not to be used against domestic citizens, though militias and National Guardsmen have fired on citizens. I looked in the section on executive powers and I did not see it there either. Yet I have heard it so many times, in Objectivist circles, it must be an interpretation that is roundly accepted. I have used those NIOF Constitutional phrases to non Objectivists and in college essays and I never heard anyone dispute it. George 54 Where Are You? He will know. He knows everything. Mr. Smith, please come to Washington. Adam is holding my feet to the fire.

Peter

[Peter]

Adam wrote:

There is no "strictly" in the sections you posted in terms of domestic retaliatory force.

end quote

This is from the original Constitution, concerning exclusive use of retaliatory force to ensure the domestic peace. The key phrases are, “without the Consent of Congress,” and “unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.”

Peter

Article. I.

Section. 10.

No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.

Article. IV.

Section. 4.

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence.

[syrakusos]

Do you think it is possible to build a real version of Atlantis somewhere in the world today? Maybe not a completely self-sufficient community, but at least a town with a small, limited government and a legal separation of economy and state and church and state.

See the topic "Atlantis 2: Hiding in Plain SIght" for a continuation of the substantive topic.

[MrBenjamatic]

Do you think it is possible to build a real version of Atlantis somewhere in the world today? Maybe not a completely self-sufficient community, but at least a town with a small, limited government and a legal separation of economy and state and church and state.

Steve:

Welcome to OL.

My answer is yes. You would have to pick the correct state and county in the US where you could "create" your incorporated "town."

Towns often exist as distinct governmental units, with legally defined borders and some or all of the appurtenances of local government (e.g., a

police

force). In the United States these are referred to as "incorporated towns". In other cases the town lacks its own governance and is said to be "unincorporated". Note that the existence of an unincorporated town may be legally set forth through other means, as through zoning districts. In the case of some

planned communities

, the town exists legally in the form of covenants on the properties within the town. The

United States Census

identifies many

census-designated places

(CDPs) by the names of unincorporated towns which lie within them; however, those CDPs typically include

rural

and

suburban

areas and even surrounding villages and other towns.

The US would probably be the "safest" place to effect this polity, at least for the first few years.

What brought you to OL?

Adam

But would the federal government not tyrannically enforce laws upon the individuals in that community? Of course they would. The individuals would have to pay federal taxes and obey federal laws. There is no way to be free of the federal government and live in lassiez faire capitalism at present. Even doing so in secret would be impossible, or very very near to it, with all the tracking the government does: cell phones, internet, etc. Espionage and intelligence has furthered a great deal since Rand wrote Atlas Shrugged. I'm sure the Feds would find out, even by noticing a large amount of cell phones in the area, and poison your lassiez faire capitalist society with tyranny.