anthony Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Sorry, but this is becoming circular - and silly.A "criminal act" isn't a floating abstraction - it is carried out by ~ somebody ~ upon ~ somebody.Carol, you imply that only after an individual is lying semi-comatose in hospital, and only after the courtshave found his assailant guilty, does he know a crime has been committed.It amounts to: Who am I to judge? Who am I to know? until authority has spoken.Practically speaking, there's never a cop around at exactly the moment he's needed.Morally, it's one's duty (to oneself) to act in self-protection - at the moment one realises thethreat exists. And to whichever extent one deems correct - "disproportionate" response, included.One's assailant has zero value as a human - particularly in that moment - compared to one's own value in oneself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Life and death are circular and silly, and practically speaking, if we are back to Martin and Zimmerman, the Florida law is easily readable and accords more with your view than mine. Being not just comatose but dead, Martin cannot testify if he felt Zimmerman to be a threat to his life, and therefore felt justified in trying to kill him. Zimmerman, who certainly knew the law, will testify that he knewMartin to be a threat to his, so he felt justified in killing him. His testimony will, I suppose, be the objectiveness which we all crave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 We have been speaking of a general principle (haven't we?).This specific case I've barely been following. It's obviously complex.Who initiated the force, in reality? Did Zimmerman provoke an attack?Do you contend he 'lured' Martin to his death for race-related or othermotives? If he did, he is morally a pig. How will the truth ever come out, with only one witness? Legally then he must be not guilty, no? Subjectiveguess-work cannot indict him.I have not the faintest idea obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Not only a schmuck, but one who suffers from mental illness, and whose family supports him in his dysfunction.AnnaLisa:Do you have the original links to the sources for your asertions?AdamAnna Lisa:This is twice. Do you have the original links to the sources for your assertions?Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Not only a schmuck, but one who suffers from mental illness, and whose family supports him in his dysfunction.AnnaLisa:Do you have the original links to the sources for your asertions?AdamAnna Lisa:This is twice. Do you have the original links to the sources for your assertions?AdamLooks like there will not be a reply from her -- there was a lot of speculation about Zimmerman's mental state, and she may have been referring to a Psychology Today article by Dale Archer, which I read, "Mind of a Shooter." Interestingly he asserts that the Martin incident had nothing to do with gun laws or Stand Your Ground and could not have been prevented.Looks like another potential new poster has fled, and a woman too. Come back, Annalisa! Ellen, Xray and I really need you to help make the OL Ronettes a reality (the Mikettes *I should say).Adam will be back on the Welcome Wagon when the election is over....*first choice name was the OL Supremes but that seemed a little strident Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Not only a schmuck, but one who suffers from mental illness, and whose family supports him in his dysfunction.AnnaLisa:Do you have the original links to the sources for your asertions?AdamAnna Lisa:This is twice. Do you have the original links to the sources for your assertions?AdamLooks like there will not be a reply from her -- there was a lot of speculation about Zimmerman's mental state, and she may have been referring to a Psychology Today article by Dale Archer, which I read, "Mind of a Shooter." Interestingly he asserts that the Martin incident had nothing to do with gun laws or Stand Your Ground and could not have been prevented.Looks like another potential new poster has fled, and a woman too. Come back, Annalisa! Ellen, Xray and I really need you to help make the OL Ronettes a reality (the Mikettes *I should say)Adam will be back on the Welcome Wagon when the election is over....*first choice name was the OL Supremes but that seemed a little stridentSo, I guess the Four Horsemen of the OL Apocalypse never received consideration? I, of course, am the White Horse because I am innocent and pure and because it symbolizes Conquest...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Apocalypse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Not only a schmuck, but one who suffers from mental illness, and whose family supports him in his dysfunction.AnnaLisa:Do you have the original links to the sources for your asertions?AdamAnna Lisa:This is twice. Do you have the original links to the sources for your assertions?AdamLooks like there will not be a reply from her -- there was a lot of speculation about Zimmerman's mental state, and she may have been referring to a Psychology Today article by Dale Archer, which I read, "Mind of a Shooter." Interestingly he asserts that the Martin incident had nothing to do with gun laws or Stand Your Ground and could not have been prevented.Looks like another potential new poster has fled, and a woman too. Come back, Annalisa! Ellen, Xray and I really need you to help make the OL Ronettes a reality (the Mikettes *I should say)Adam will be back on the Welcome Wagon when the election is over....*first choice name was the OL Supremes but that seemed a little stridentSo, I guess the Four Horsemen of the OL Apocalypse never received consideration?I, of course, am the White Horse because I am innocent and pure and because it symbolizes Conquest...http://en.wikipedia...._the_ApocalypseIt's a girl group tribute band - it would have to be Horsewomen. I can think of who you could recruit for Famine, etc however!Or if we can't get a fourth (Dr Presley regrettably is always busy on Karaoke Ladies Free nite at the Hag & Sporran)- maybe you could join us if the costume would fit you, as you said you can sing falsetto,Here's the Randettes signature tune...Chiffons saluteOne Fine DayYou'll peruse meAnd see the truth of my philosophyOne fine dayYou're gonna want me for your guruDobedobedobephilosopher queen dobewapta....You can start practising now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Campbell Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Not if the citizenry isn't, no, as previously they did not when firearms were not distributed to the public as in the UK for example, police were not armed. However where private firearms are legal, or where illegal firearms are known to be owned, it is necessary.When private firearms were legal in the UK, the police didn't carry guns.When gun control was initially imposed in the UK, the police still didn't carry guns.Now when the UK has truly draconian gun control laws, the police carry guns.Interesting, no?Robert Campbell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Campbell Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 GZ as a member of Neighborhood Watch was well informed as to his position, Wendy Dorival, Sanford PD, instructed him as such.His responsiblity, just as those of any other US citizen was to, "observe and report," only. Once he left his truck, he was in pursuit.Was what Mr. Zimmerman was "instructed" to do constitute a legal obligation, under Florida law or otherwise?Robert Campbell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Not if the citizenry isn't, no, as previously they did not when firearms were not distributed to the public as in the UK for example, police were not armed. However where private firearms are legal, or where illegal firearms are known to be owned, it is necessary.When private firearms were legal in the UK, the police didn't carry guns.When gun control was initially imposed in the UK, the police still didn't carry guns.Now when the UK has truly draconian gun control laws, the police carry guns.Interesting, no?Robert CampbellYou are right of course. I did know guns were always legal there, I was thinking of the rural shotguns and so on, not urban handguns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 An unnamed girl, the one identified by the Martin family attorney as Trayvon's girlfriend, told Assistant State Attorney Bernie de la Rionda what she heard on the phone with Trayvon.By Rene Stutzman and Jeff Weiner, Orlando Sentinel 11:33 a.m. EST, March 5, 2013SANFORD - George Zimmerman's "stand your ground" hearing will not begin April 22 as planned, after his lawyer Mark O'Mara told a judge this morning he will not need the court time she'd set aside.O'Mara stopped short of confirming that Zimmerman will combine the hearing with his trial, as the defense lawyer has previously said he was considering."Haven't made that decision yet. Our real focus is getting ready for the trial," O'Mara told reporters after the hearing, adding "... there's only time for one hearing and that's a jury trial. ... We have precious little time."Audio: Trayvon's girlfriend recalls phone call Pictures: Zimmerman trial status hearing Zimmerman Trial status hearingPhotos Pictures: Trayvon Martin through the years Pictures: George Zimmerman released on bail Pictures: Trayvon Martin shooting and aftermathProsecutor Bernie de la Rionda said he was "bewildered" by O'Mara's decision. But he said it would save him from having to live out of a hotel in Seminole County for two weeks next month.Zimmerman was expected to seek immunity from prosecution under the controversial self-defense law at a pre-trial hearing. His decision to forego the April date was the second major development to come from this morning's hearing. Attorneys for George Zimmerman were expected to ask his judge this morning to order the state's most important witness, the young Miami woman who was on the phone with Trayvon Martin just before he was shot, to produce medical records.However, defense lawyer Don West made a startling claim shortly after the hearing began: The state had revealed, before the hearing, that there are no medical records.The woman, the defense lawyer said, "misrepresented" in a sworn statement that she missed Trayvon's funeral because she had been hospitalized."In fact, she lied," West said.Prosecutor John Guy confirmed there will be no medical records, effectively confirming that there was no hospital trip.The defense had requested the records to challenge her story. Zimmerman is not in court today. The hearing started about 9 a.m.The young woman, typically referred to as Witness 8, already had credibility problems: Benjamin Crump, an attorney for Trayvon's family, identified her as 16 years old when he played for reporters a recorded interview he conducted with her in March.But she was 18 at the time and 19 now, O'Mara says.During that interview by Crump, Witness 8 said she had been on the phone with Trayvon and he said he was scared because a strange man was following him. She said she heard Trayvon and the man come face to face and heard them exchange a few words then the phone went dead.Zimmerman shot him a short time later. He is charged with second-degree murder. He says he acted in self-defense.O'Mara is trying to delve into the young woman's background and investigate her. He has already convinced the judge to allow him to subpoena her Twitter and Facebook accounts so he can read her posts.After their discussion of Witness 8, the state and defense debated a set of witness bios the Zimmerman defense wants from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. FDLE says they're irrelevant and contain confidential information.The judge left court to review them, and returned with redacted copies. She said the defense will get those copies, with the exempt confidential information, such as social security numbers, removed.The judge was also expected to be asked to decide whether to allow Zimmerman's attorneys access to surveillance camera video from two stores near the scene of the shooting and an apartment complex.However, O'Mara told the judge that the issue had been resolved before the hearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 Whatever the evidence ultimately shows, this trial is already a true American Tragedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George H. Smith Posted June 29, 2013 Author Share Posted June 29, 2013 I watched much of the trial today on streaming video. The testimony of the major prosecution witness supported the defense on every major point. The charges should never have been filed against Zimmerman, especially not second-degree murder. This trial is a joke. Ghs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 I watched much of the trial today on streaming video. The testimony of the major prosecution witness supported the defense on every major point. The charges should never have been filed against Zimmerman, especially not second-degree murder. This trial is a joke. Ghs No, not a joke.Without having your knowledge of American law or the circumstances of the case (I have avoided the coverage since the charges were announced) -I think you will allow me to know what a joke is. I referred to Dreiser's title deliberately. It is a tragedy of the American dream, in this case the dream of perfect liberty and righteousness in defence of it, of defending one's own America by any means necessary, of having one's own perceptions held up as of right, enshrined in the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George H. Smith Posted June 29, 2013 Author Share Posted June 29, 2013 I watched much of the trial today on streaming video. The testimony of the major prosecution witness supported the defense on every major point. The charges should never have been filed against Zimmerman, especially not second-degree murder. This trial is a joke. Ghs No, not a joke.Without having your knowledge of American law or the circumstances of the case (I have avoided the coverage since the charges were announced) -I think you will allow me to know what a joke is. I referred to Dreiser's title deliberately. It is a tragedy of the American dream, in this case the dream of perfect liberty and righteousness in defence of it, of defending one's own America by any means necessary, of having one's own perceptions held up as of right, enshrined in the law. The only eyewitness to the fight -- one called, ironically, by the prosecution -- testified that Martin had Zimmerman pinned to the ground and was punching him in "MMA style," i.e., mixed martial arts style, as he ground Zimmerman's head into the ground. So what was Zimmerman supposed to do? Hope that Martin would stop before he was brain-damaged or dead? This trial is a "joke" because the only reason the DA filed charges was because of public pressure, specifically, a mass petition that demanded legal retribution against Zimmerman, and was signed by people who didn't know what actually happened. It's a show trial, and do you know what's going to happen when Zimmerman is found not guilty, as he should be? There will be protests and riots. The mob wants a sacrificial lamb. If Martin had been white, the trial would never have happened. It is racially based, period. Ghs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 I watched much of the trial today on streaming video. The testimony of the major prosecution witness supported the defense on every major point. The charges should never have been filed against Zimmerman, especially not second-degree murder. This trial is a joke.GhsNo, not a joke.Without having your knowledge of American law or the circumstances of the case (I have avoided the coverage since the charges were announced) -I think you will allow me to know what a joke is. I referred to Dreiser's title deliberately. It is a tragedy of the American dream, in this case the dream of perfect liberty and righteousness in defence of it, of defending one's own America by any means necessary, of having one's own perceptions held up as of right, enshrined in the law.The only eyewitness to the fight -- one called, ironically, by the prosecution -- testified that Martin had Zimmerman pinned to the ground and was punching him in "MMA style," i.e., mixed martial arts style, as he ground Zimmerman's head into the ground. So what was Zimmerman supposed to do? Hope that Martin would stop before he was brain-damaged or dead?This trial is a "joke" because the only reason the DA filed charges was because of public pressure, specifically, a mass petition that demanded legal retribution against Zimmerman, and was signed by people who didn't know what actually happened. It's a show trial, and do you know what's going to happen when Zimmerman is found not guilty, as he should be? There will be protests and riots. The mob wants a sacrificial lamb. If Martin had been white, the trial would never have happened. It is racially based, period.GhsI can't imagine a police officer doing the exact same thing being indicted. It's all too well to make generalized extrapolations to excoriating views of Americanism, but one thing is true from the colonial beginning to the present-time: America swings sharp and mighty elbows and swings them hard and the world takes self-preservation notice. Saying this is good or saying this is bad simply are arguments off of that fact.--Brantgood? bad? once other countries (and American Indians and the South) had to worry, now Americans have to worry too--about America, and them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Parille Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 I've been following this case closely and the media has been flat out lying.Anyone can listen to the non emergency call by Zimmerman to the Sanford police:Dispatch: Are you following him?Zimmerman: YeahDispatch: Ok, we don't need you to do thatZimmerman: Ok.And If you listen to the tape it also sounds like Zimmerman stopped running. The dispatcher testified that his impression was that Martin had left the scene.Yet the media persists in saying that Zimmerman was told not follow him and did so anyway.George Zimmerman has been ValliantQuoated.-Neil Parille Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 Unlike George I will wait till all the evidence is heard before I try to decide if he should be acquitted or not. Of course I will interpret the evidence through my own biases, and you know them. One of the things the case is about, to me, is vigilantism, the stranger being shot by a person who was not a police officer yet who was in contact with police. Martin was guilty of being a stranger,a potential mugger or burglar, judged and executed for it. He was profiled, in the prosecution's term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 Unlike George I will wait till all the evidence is heard before I try to decide if he should be acquitted or not. Of course I will interpret the evidence through my own biases, and you know them.One of the things the case is about, to me, is vigilantism, the stranger being shot by a person who was not a police officer yet who was in contact with police. Martin was guilty of being a stranger,a potential mugger or burglar, judged and executed for it. He was profiled, in the prosecution's term.You have been rejected for jury duty for brokering evidence to your biases.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George H. Smith Posted June 29, 2013 Author Share Posted June 29, 2013 Unlike George I will wait till all the evidence is heard before I try to decide if he should be acquitted or not. Of course I will interpret the evidence through my own biases, and you know them. One of the things the case is about, to me, is vigilantism, the stranger being shot by a person who was not a police officer yet who was in contact with police. Martin was guilty of being a stranger,a potential mugger or burglar, judged and executed for it. He was profiled, in the prosecution's term. I see. You haven't made up your mind and won't do so until all the evidence is in, yet you say that Martin was "executed." I tremble at the thought of your judgment after you have made up your mind. If Martin had not approached Zimmerman, sucker punched him, and then beat him while on the ground, then he would still be alive. Zimmerman was with his neighborhood watch program, and Martin drew his attention because he was walking late at night close to houses rather than taking a sidewalk. Zimmerman had every right to be concerned (in a neighborhood that had been experiencing a lot of burglaries), and he did nothing wrong in trailing Martin from a distance. I live across the street from a mini-mart, and it's common for teens to cut through my driveway and backyard rather than go half a block to a sidewalk. And they walk very close to my house on their way. When this happens late at night it can make me nervous. I will sometimes look out the window, but if the teens keep walking there is no problem. That's what Martin should have done. Ghs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 I have not yet heard convincing evidence that Martin approached and sucker punched GZ. Incidentally, though I agree that there is a huge racial spin on this from outside, I think that if Martin had been a white 17-year-old, there would still have been a public outcry for charges, and for re-examination of the SYG law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 Why George, where is your white man's guilt?Have you no unearned shame?Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George H. Smith Posted June 29, 2013 Author Share Posted June 29, 2013 Why George, where is your white man's guilt? Have you no unearned shame? Michael I am a self-made man. I have earned every bit of shame that I have. Ghs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 I have not yet heard convincing evidence that Martin approached and sucker punched GZ.Incidentally, though I agree that there is a huge racial spin on this from outside, I think that if Martin had been a white 17-year-old, there would still have been a public outcry for charges, and for re-examination of the SYG law.It wouldn't have gotten much national media mileage at all. Same as for white on white, black on black and black on white crime. If it's (hopefully) white on black we get this contrived mess. It's part of the white-collective guilt for slavery and racism thingy. From Hollywood we get the evil businessman, white of course, for the broader canvas. Hardly ever the evil politician or government bureaucrat or laws. Evil military is okay.--Brantintro know your culture 101 (reverse racism) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dglgmut Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 I have not yet heard convincing evidence that Martin approached and sucker punched GZ.Incidentally, though I agree that there is a huge racial spin on this from outside, I think that if Martin had been a white 17-year-old, there would still have been a public outcry for charges, and for re-examination of the SYG law.It seems like the majority of people cannot even entertain the idea that Trayvon was an asshole. I don't know the facts, but neither do most people.Just because he's black does not make him an angel. If he did in fact attack Zimmerman and legitimately threaten his life, then he got what was coming to him. Can you at least admit that?Zimmerman has taken a voice stress test that indicated he honestly was afraid for his life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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