The Exploitation of Trayvon Martin

[caroljane]

I have not yet heard convincing evidence that Martin approached and sucker punched GZ.

Incidentally, though I agree that there is a huge racial spin on this from outside, I think that if Martin had been a white 17-year-old, there would still have been a public outcry for charges, and for re-examination of the SYG law.

It seems like the majority of people cannot even entertain the idea that Trayvon was an asshole. I don't know the facts, but neither do most people.

Just because he's black does not make him an angel. If he did in fact attack Zimmerman and legitimately threaten his life, then he got what was coming to him. Can you at least admit that?

Zimmerman has taken a voice stress test that indicated he honestly was afraid for his life.

Apparently you did not read my post. I am willing to believe, even concede that the victim was an asshole (the world is full of them, moreso in the perception of some than of others), and to concede that he roused strong feelings in Z and that the memory causes strong feelings of fear in him. I am not willing to believe on the evidence so far, that Martin was the pursuer, that he sucker-punched Zimmerman and pounded his head, just because Zimmerman says so.

[caroljane]

If I were facing a Florida prison sentence I would sound pretty scared too.

[Dglgmut]

No, the stress test just showed that he was telling the truth when they asked, "Were you afraid you were going to die?" "Yes."

[caroljane]

No, the stress test just showed that he was telling the truth when they asked, "Were you afraid you were going to die?" "Yes."

When was this put in .evidence? I am only reading news reports of the trial, I haven't seen this. Did he take a polygraph also? Are voice stress tests more conclusive than polygraphs?

[Peter]

Is science racist? OF COURSE NOT. But apologists and Network News insists that we cannot speak the truth. We can’t handle the truth about race. The truth is hurtful. I would not willingly hurt anyone’s feelings but I agree with Barbara Branden and Peter Reidy (winner of the Westinghouse Prize as a teenager and author of Wright and Rand) in their following letters.

From: BBfromM@aol.com
To: atlantis@wetheliving.com
Subject: Re: ATL: Normal Distributions and Human Differences
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 03:16:15 EDT
David Bozzini wrote:
<< I am often amused to find the following attitude, even among presumably educated persons: "There just can't be any differences between races or ethnic groups when it comes to IQ, or any other ability that might matter in the real world." >>

I don't think anyone has been arguing that there are no differences among races or ethnic groups in their IQ's. The argument is about what – if anything -- follows from that. Some say that because of differences in IQ, the lower IQ groups should be seen as inferiors and refused admittance to the United States, and that those already here should be repatriated. Others insist that people should be judged as individuals, and that the average IQ of their group is irrelevant to any judgment of the individual. The argument is about individualism versus collectivism.
Barbara

From: "Peter Reidy" <peterreidy@hotmail.com>
To: atlantis@wetheliving.com
Subject: ATL: Re: Meditations on Mensa
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 15:49:20 +0000
Say what you will about the established IQ tests or the SAT, they have shown themselves to be highly reliable predictors of numerous interesting and important outcomes - academic and professional success in particular, though Herrnstein and Murray report that IQ also correlates well with one's chances of going to jail.

If your job is to allocate scarce resources - jobs, student aid money, places in the entering class - the responsible way to go about it is to identify, as best you can, who will put the resource to good use. The burden is on those who Just Don't Get a Good Feeling about standardized tests to come up with a better predictor. It has to be better because one just as good wouldn't justify the costs of switching over.

The standard comeback is that said predictive success happens because good prospects are defined as good scores, so that these forecasts are circular or self-fulfilling. The evidence isn't good. IQ scores were good predictors before they were widely used, and even now they are rarely the only criterion. SAT scores are better predictors of college grades than high school grades are. IQ correlates highly between parents and children, as it wouldn't if it were some arbitrary, unnatural construct. And so on.
Peter

From: "Peter Reidy" <peterreidy@hotmail.com>
To: atlantis@wetheliving.com
Subject: ATL: Re: Meditations on Mensa
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 23:59:35 +0000
Ad hominems are a classic way of conceding a point, and I accept the concession.

The fact that I didn't bring up fundamental theoretical issues in a particular post does not entail that I would refuse to, nor would that in turn show that nobody is willing to discuss them. If I point out a mistake in somebody's arithmetic, that doesn't mean that I or anyone else would refuse to discuss the foundations of mathematics. To adopt Olson's rhetorical techniques, perhaps his hostility to IQ testing is due to his problems with the elementary deductive skills that such tests try to identify.

Another point is: I'm not at all sure that IQ is as popular as Olson thinks with that ol' debbil educational establishment. A certain quasi-marxist egalitarianism that opposes these tests is very influential these days. In California, for example, the legislature has outlawed, on political grounds, IQ testing of minority students in public schools; the academics, teachers' unions and elected officials who might have come the defense of the tests didn't. Another evidence against Olson's belief is the hostile reactions to "The Bell Curve" and the establishment's failure to come to its defense.

I haven't read the book myself, but, like anyone who follows the news, I saw lots of commentary on it. The commentaries that were intelligent and well-mannered and seemed to be the work of people who breathe with their mouths closed all said that the authors did an excellent job of documenting IQ's predictive value. The others I saw ranted about "racism" and "social Darwinism" but failed to challenge its central thesis.

Two questions:
- what is a good, compact, accessible-to-amateurs statement of the theoretical case against IQ testing? - what is a good, compact, accessible-to-amateurs critique of the received notion that IQ tests and various academic aptitude tests are useful predictors?

I can't promise to read either, but the likelihood can't get any less if someone gives me a reference.
Peter Reidy

In an old letter from Objectivist Living. In a letter written long, long ago, Michael Stuart Kelly wrote:
For scientists (as a class, with some exceptions, though), I've learned that all you need to say--if you have the power--is "here's some money" and "you can't have any money" and they sell their souls . . . Thank goodness the public is wiser than the scientist class.
end quote

We must be rationally pro individualism and anti-collectivism. I feel badly for his parents. The prosecution’s primary witness, Trayvon’s girlfriend who was on the phone with him during his march to his death, refused to acknowledge that the word “cracker” was a racist taunt. I don‘t use the N word, nor should anyone else just because some like Jamie Foxx and Al Sharpton are horribly racist.

Peter Taylor

[Peter]

Still can’t sleep. It happened two weeks ago, but newly released surveillance video shows a black man taking a toddler hostage with a knife at her throat at a Walmart in suburban Oklahoma City, The hostage-taker was shot and killed by law enforcement.

The hostage negotiator walks around the aisle to make sure he has a round in the chamber then he walks back to the “suspect” and puts a bullet in his brain, as the hostage taker is counting down to zero. The child was physically unharmed but jeezus Christ will she remember any of this? I urge you to watch the video. What the hell is going wrong in people’s heads? Is there a new “dope” out there in the hood?

The local news people are fun to watch. I compared them to WBOC news in Salisbury, Maryland. I think our local newscasters are more honest and less pretentious.

Peter

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Peter,

I just caught this on TheBlaze:

CAUGHT ON TAPE: HERO COP SAVES 2-YEAR-OLD GIRL FROM DERANGED KNIFE-WIELDING MAN WITH ONE VERY ACCURATE SHOT

Here's the video:

http://youtu.be/23uPQgaJ24Y

Michael

[Peter]

Thank you for the link, Michael. It illustrates the larger problem than just this one case.

George wrote:
I am a self-made man. I have earned every bit of shame that I have.
end quote

Bravo. That sounds like something Winston Churchill might say. I try to make it a habit to rectify situations if I realize I did something I am not proud of. I can’t wait to read your book.

I won’t lecture you and this thread’s readers any more other than with the following. George once mentioned that he smoked without inhaling. Yet, George is re-inhaling and breathing his own smoke several times, so George, I hope you don’t suffer from emphysema like my Dad. In many ways you are a national treasure; our own Mister Smith goes to Washington.

In connection to that thought let me say that I have snored since I was a kid and I just had two sleep studies done and now I wear a sleep apnea device called a Cpap. I feel great. I sleep so much better. Once I go to sleep I stay asleep and my wife is also pleased. So if anyone snores check into it. Your breathing may be interrupted several times a night and your brain may not be getting enough oxygen. (jokes welcome!) As you age it may get worse and you will start to get dark circles under you eyes and look hung-over even if you don’t drink alcohol. I just don’t snore anymore. The dark smudge under my eyes has disappeared after two weeks of use.

If anyone heeds my advice and checks into their snoring, during your sleep study try out the smaller, more comfortable “nose covering” mask and use an additional chin strap if some air leaks out of your mouth when your pillow is next to your face, as happened to me. The smaller mask requires that a smaller air space needs to be pressurized. It is very quiet while the bigger mask is noisier and it leaks pressure more readily, and is harder to get used to.

Peter

[Peter]

Jamie Foxx was sporting a tee shirt that stated, “Know Justice – Know Peace,” with pictures of the slain Newtown kids and with a more prominent picture of Trayvon And now at the BET awards he was wearing a simple picture of Trayvon in black and white and in an interview Jamie said he is just trying to protect kids from people are grown up. Yeah. Sure. At a black winners only event.

The thing that is ominous is that the letters “no” in both instances are in bright red while the other letters in the slogan are in white. NO justice. NO peace. It is ominous because the T Shirt is saying, “Find George Zimmerman guilty and execute him or we blacks and left anarchists will destroy the peace.” We will riot and kill “whitie.”

Peter

[caroljane]

In Old Man Taylor's maunderings about collectivism and individualism, he has failed to note that Zimmerman did not; apparently perceive Martin as an individual; his first words to the stranger were not "who are you?" but "what are you doing here?"

This says to me that he had already decided who and what Martin was. Again in the prosecution's words, he had profiled him.

[Peter]

Daunce wrote:

In Old Man Taylor's maunderings about collectivism and individualism, he has failed to note that Zimmerman did not; apparently perceive Martin as an individual; his first words to the stranger were not "who are you?" but "what are you doing here?" This says to me that he had already decided who and what Martin was. Again in the prosecution's words, he had profiled him.

end quote

That is a stretch, Carol. The word “you” means he was talking to an individual. “What are you!” would signify seeing Godzilla, so, "what are you doing here?" is in no way racist. Studiodekadent, an OL contributor, once wrote about something other than Trayvon Martin:
This thread is aimed at having a productive discussion on the issue of Meta-Anthropology, or the philosophy of human nature.
end quote

As George has said, this whole story is about race. It will end with violence between the races. Bloody murder. The Trayvon discussion cannot be without controversy because we are either discussing one or two groups of *humans.* Come on Daunce - no cringing. Keep your eyes open.

From Wikipedia:
"A subspecies (race) is a distinct evolutionary lineage within a species. This definition requires that a subspecies be genetically differentiated due to barriers to genetic exchange that have persisted for long periods of time; that is, the subspecies must have historical continuity in addition to current genetic differentiation."
end quote

Look up the word "cline". Today, there are at least two schools of thought about this issue of race and both claim to be more scientific. In my opinion, the more scientific school of thought causes outrage in the other school of thought. It means not getting grants, as Msk has mentioned, just like the Deterministic Quantum Mechanics proponents and the anti man-made global warming scientists, won’t get financing for their work. A dissenting scientist risks being ignored or swept under the rug.

The first, majority theory PUBLICALLY held by about seventy percent of scientists with an opinion is:
All humans are classified as belonging to the species Homo sapiens AND sub-species Homo sapiens sapiens.

The other scientific theory is:
All humans are classified as belonging to the species Homo sapiens and SOME humans belong to the sub-species Homo sapiens sapiens.

The difference is subtle and usually not emphasized nor is an explanation provided when either school of thought is promoted. Why the controversy? The two species are quite similar genetically. We are all humans. There is more of a gene spread within Black Africa than between the descendents of black Africans and Non Black humanity.

If you study humans in Black Africa you see Homo Sapiens with an average IQ of 70, even when measured by psychologists hoping for a higher number. The positive, civilizing influence from Western culture (The Flynn Affect,) has caused some retreats from tribalism and some scientific advancement over the millennia. There may be hope for raising IQ’s in blacks in the millennia to come. Things are not going to change there, unless there is better nutrition, and education, and unless their gene pool is changed.

If we are discussing the nature of man, that particular geographic area, which used to be called the Dark Continent, can be scientifically, and conceptually set aside as part of a Hobbesian, brutish existence zone, inhabited by the first humans, who are still alive and thriving at a third or forth world level.

Of course, Romantic Primitivism can be seen in Africa and in descendents of black Africans. And there are exceptions to these generalized statements. The two species theory observes continent wide trends. The truth is the scientific view, even if it is not expressed publicly. It is the view of evolutionary psychologists and biologists. It is not a racist slant of the facts. The truth is what it is.

Anthropologists have scientifically studied THE REST of humanity, or Homo Sapiens Sapiens for a hundred years, and they still do not agree on our basic nature. We are volitional. We act correctly in social settings, not initiating force, and we do NOT act correctly when dealing with others. We have our monsters and genocide as with Nazi Germany but the level of violence and force in white societies is dramatically less than in black societies.

As first hand proof, check out some critically acclaimed black TV shows like the OLD, Cosby Show where he threatens a white guy, movies - especially black drama like “Barber Shop.” As proof look up crime rates among blacks in American and in Africa. South Africa is the “rape capital” of the world. Low IQ’s coupled with greater speed and strength are directly coupled with crime rates.

What I can unequivocally state is that PHILOSOPHY MATTERS, BECAUSE OF OUR CONTRARY NATURE. And philosophy will be appreciated only among the more intelligent. Freedom brings more happiness and prosperity. Free civilization allows us to conjecture and advance. Freedom works.

So is George Zimmerman guilty of not following a police officer’s directions. Yes. Well, sorta, maybe according to Adam.

Did he stake out his own neighborhood and then notice a young, black individual in a hoodie and did that make him suspicious? Sure.

Wouldn’t you be suspicious? Even Jesse Jackson admitted that black youths walking behind him on a dark city street would scare the crap out of him. White youths, not so much, but he would still be vigilant. So if this trial is bogus what is the truth?
Peter

[Selene]

I would highly suggest that everyone try out the My Pillow - it is remarkable.

[caroljane]

The trial is about second-degree murder. If race contributed legitimately(and that is possible) to Zimmerman's stated fear for his life, then repellent as it is, he should be acquitted if the other evidence proves favourable to him. But his defence would naturally want to play that angle down (they would have to prove Z is terrified of all blacks, or something like that)

[caroljane]

For example, if Doug Bandler, noted Soloist, shot a Muslim in Florida, or any state with a Stand Your Ground Law, a good lawyer could easily get him acquitted. It could be proved that Dog genuinely believes any and all Muslims want to kill him because he is a Western infidel.

[Peter]

Adam wrote:

I would highly suggest that everyone try out the My Pillow - it is remarkable.

end quote

Thanks for the tip, Adam. I have looked at those pillows with a section missing. One was fifty bucks.

George H. Smith wrote:
I watched much of the trial today on streaming video. The testimony of the major prosecution witness supported the defense on every major point. The charges should never have been filed against Zimmerman, especially not second-degree murder. This trial is a joke . . . . It's a show trial, and do you know what's going to happen when Zimmerman is found not guilty, as he should be? There will be protests and riots. The mob wants a sacrificial lamb. If Martin had been white, the trial would never have happened. It is racially based, period.
end quote

Well said and thought out George. If it had been a black on black crime it would not have gotten one minute on the national news. Last weekend there were 40 some shoot outs in Chicago and 9 deaths. In the last week there were thirty some shoot outs in Baltimore and 14 deaths. The blacks are just killing each other across the country and that ain’t news to CBS? What is it, new drugs like “bath salts”? The heat? Terror-tories? The Crypts expanding? Who knows. It’s not important to Progressives because it is just those dark complexioned folk killing each other.

George wrote:
If Martin had not approached Zimmerman, sucker punched him, and then beat him while on the ground, then he would still be alive. Zimmerman was with his neighborhood watch program, and Martin drew his attention because he was walking late at night close to houses rather than taking a sidewalk. Zimmerman had every right to be concerned (in a neighborhood that had been experiencing a lot of burglaries), and he did nothing wrong in trailing Martin from a distance. I live across the street from a mini-mart, and it's common for teens to cut through my driveway and backyard rather than go half a block to a sidewalk. And they walk very close to my house on their way. When this happens late at night it can make me nervous. I will sometimes look out the window, but if the teens keep walking there is no problem. That's what Martin should have done.
end quote

Wow again. Well said George.

Daunce wrote:

The trial is about second-degree murder. If race contributed legitimately(and that is possible) to Zimmerman's stated fear for his life, then repellent as it is, he should be acquitted if the other evidence proves favourable to him. But his defence would naturally want to play that angle down (they would have to prove Z is terrified of all blacks, or something like that)

end quote

So if he is acquitted it will be, “World War Z?” Blacks like Zombies will be marauding and murdering? With liberal Carol at the head of the mob? Maybe. I honestly don’t think you are being rational Carol. A judge on Fox was saying that the prosecution was charging Zimmerman with murder so they could get a manslaughter conviction and jail time. The judge had to bite his tongue because I think he was going to say Zimmerman would be tortured and killed by black inmates IF he went to jail. Instead he said manslaughter in Florida can bring a fifteen year sentence. If the manslaughter involves a “child” the perpetrator can get thirty years. I would be afraid of a violent jail house death if I were Zimmerman if he even spends one more day in jail unless he is in solitary. Blacks do have an evolutionary advantage in strength and speed, and to say that is in no way fey or racist, Daunce. It is the scientific truth. I think the majority of us on OL think individually and not like collectivists. But Science and the truth are what they are.

I hope everyone survives city living because a lot is going to eventually happen. It is more pleasant and the populations are more dispersed here in the country - in case there is another big bang as occurred in Hiroshima, or mass riots – so ya’ll are welcome to remove your seat belts and stretch out here in one of the country’s last bastions of the home of the brave.

Are you still in LA, George? Get the hell out of that future grave yard. Tick Tock. What? You are still in the city after my warning? Oh well. What’s a patriot to do? Join a neighborhood watch?
Peter Taylor

[caroljane]

I would highly suggest that everyone try out the My Pillow - it is remarkable.

lol are you suggesting we should all relax and take a nap? What I need is to be more awake and productive, not to sleep even more comfortably!

[caroljane]

Peter, your comments are of course your own reflections but not germane to what I have been commenting on, the trial itself and the SYG law. It is the law itself which drags in race because it can be in this case a factor. It is a stupid, redundant, "Don't-Need-No-Stinkin'-Alibi" law, which can nowhere be proved to reduce crime in general, but does produce an increase in what Wiki calls "raw homicide" rates.

The raw homicides - the corpses - may well all have been horrible criminals that the world is well rid of. A few were simple mistakes (as with the man who shot his son to death thinking him a burglar). Some of the deterred rapists, burglars etc may have been capable of redemption. But we will never know, and the longsuffering taxpayer is relieved the burden of maintaining them.

If all would-be criminals are righteously killed, though, how are the retired sheriffs who run the private prisons going to make a profit?There are only so many embezzlers and alimony deadbeats getting convicted every year.

[caroljane]

"When he was fifteen he tried to drown himself because he loved a girl, his first love, and she laughed at him.

' A thousand women have paid for that' -and his tight little mouth turns down at the corners."

Katherine Anne Porter

," Flowering |Judas"

[anthony]

I must disagree with Peter in that I don't believe high-ish IQ is a primary requisite for rationality. For philosophy, I'd agree.

But rationality is rejected by any person of one racial 'group' who thinks collectively (i.e. racially) - of themself, as well as others' 'groups'. There's only one 'nature of man', in the O'ist way of thinking, I think.

However, a problem arises. As much as one does always treat any and each person individualistically... if, or when they 'revert to type' and want - by inference or demand - to be treated by some perceived nature of their group, what other choice is there but to accede to what they wish? It's a no-win. Individualism is dismissed and feared by many.

There's what makes racism (once) white on black and (now largely) black on white, as I've seen in South Africa, so insidiously nasty.

Made all the more so when the State takes race into account, economically or legally. If Zimmerman instantly reacted from a racial stereotype, then he was irrational - but how can a racist mindset be the business of the Law, to punish or 'correct'? He was scared, obviously.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I suggest the liberal guilt itch could be better scratched by trying to figure out what to do about gang violence.

I don't have any statistics in front of me, but it's not hard to imagine what the comparison would be between deaths from stand your ground laws and deaths from street gangs.

Let us, by all means if we are decent caring human beings, rage against the stand your ground laws in the suburbs--and secretly hope nobody notices the gangs too much. Yeah, right. Anyone not bathed in the liberal white guilt core story seers this as hypocrisy. But at least I try to understand it.

Let's start here. Street gangs make a horrible storyline for white guilt. Mostly because there are no whites in most street gangs these days to blame stuff on. The white guilt folks try to talk about oppression causing the gang culture and so on, but they just can't seem to make the white man the villain with gangs.

This isn't solely a liberal or Progressive sin, either. Humans are funny creatures in that the story they adhere to is much more important than any deaths they come across. Or lets say it this way. Depending on your story, some murders are more murder than other murders, which are less murder.

And people get real uncomfortable when you show them the logical extension of this, that they literally feel that some lives are more valuable than other lives based on nothing more substantive than a fairy-tale. For instance, in the present case using the Progressive perspective, a black man who is killed by another black man is a tragedy, but to a Progressive, his life is not nearly as valuable as a black man killed by a white. (Progressives howl when you say this, but just look at what they do as opposed to what they say.)

Even if the white is not a white but just looks like one, the narrative is the same, i.e., that's a life cut short worth mourning and remembering and honoring. As for the black killed by a black? Well, that's a shame, ain't it? Too bad. Anyway, don't bother me with trifles... Getting back to the vicious injustice of Trayvon's murder...

Michael

[caroljane]

As the token guilty-liberal, howling mob leader here, I can only tell you that if Zimmerman had been blacker than Martin (I am sure there are black neighbourhood watchers, even in Florida) I would have felt and said the same things about this case as I have done. But why should you believe me - Progressives are all liars or at best, self-deceivers; there is no individuality of thought processes among them.

[caroljane]

BTW we have plenty of gangs here in Toronto. But the mayor has some real good connections with them and likely has a plan to clean them up.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Carol,

Heh.

Why is it I never hear of Progressives bashing the thugs who take over their inner-city neighborhoods and keep people who are in misery more miserable, cannibalizing the very people they grew up around? They are vicious oppressors flaunting the money they steel off their victims even as they keep their boot on the necks of those they oppress. They are the 1% of their neighborhoods victimizing the 99% who live there.

I mean street gangs, of course.

Somehow I never hear that kind of rhetoric coming from Progressives about black on black or Hispanic on Hispanic crimes.

Why would that be, I wonder I wonder?

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

As the token guilty-liberal, howling mob leader here, I can only tell you that if Zimmerman had been blacker than Martin (I am sure there are black neighbourhood watchers, even in Florida) I would have felt and said the same things about this case as I have done.

Carol,

Really?

Would you have said anything?

All I've heard so far is crickets chirping.

There's a butt-load of crimes--and add more on top of that--I can dig up if you are interested in pursuing these feelings.

For example, every weekend here in Chicago it's execution time in the ghettos. Some bleed over to right next to Obama's home.

Maybe I missed your outrage about those things?

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

BTW we have plenty of gangs here in Toronto. But the mayor has some real good connections with them and likely has a plan to clean them up.

When my Dad was in the NY State National Guard in the late 1930s, one member of his unit who wouldn't shower stank to high heaven. A bunch of guys grabbed him and hauled him down to the river, stripped him naked, threw him in, tossed him a bar of soap and told him he scubbed or would be scrubbed. He scrubbed.

Please forward this as a suggestion to your mayor.

--Brant