A Long Lost Objectivist Crashing Upon Your Shore

[Dan Haggerty]

Greetings!

The title is only part tongue in cheek…

I followed a link on Objectivism Online (user name Spiral Architect) from the Ninth Doctor over to this site’s Anarcho-Capitalism debate, discovering this site in the process. And what a great site you have here! I’m impressed by the articles you have here; it is a literal El Dorado of intellectual articles and sources.

I commented in that thread on what a grand debate that thread was and Dennis Hardin asked for feedback. After getting time to work up some intelligent feedback I discovered the original thread on OO locked. Not that I blame them, the original post was the silly idiocy that is Checking Premises further compounded by the original poster. I don’t want to get into the negatives of that however so I’ll save it for some other post. Bottom line is I followed the link to post a response and instead got lost exploring Objectivist Living. This site looks like it addresses one of the complaints I had made in that thread, one that I should explain. Plus it will help as an introduction.

I actually read Rand for the first time back in ’89-90. Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal was first which a friend told me about then the non-fiction followed (and the rest soon thereafter). I had dropped out of college and ended up driving truck, something I did for a good chunk of the 90’s. The great part of that was the fact I got to read a ton of books, listen to tapes (Second Renaissance was a good source back then), and see the country. The bad news is that I honestly had no idea of these schisms and fighting going on. I imagined a world where all of those people were still working together and cranking out books. Yea, I was in for a surprise.

I got a hint when one book mentioned Branden was no longer associated with Objectivism but I just chocked that up to friendships falling apart (it happens). It was disappointing since Branden wrote some of my favorite parts of VOS and his lecture series from the NBI days was golden, but hey things happen and who cares since there are no conflicts of interest amongst rational people, right? Besides, Branden’s later books were great, I had read them and they were solid reading that helped me out during that period.

I eventually went into management at that company and moved on from there but still had no contact with any self-described Objectivists. I had some libertarian friends (I also considered myself a libertarian as well at the time) but evidently living in conservative West Michigan isolated me well from meeting Objectivists or getting up to speed on… well everything It wasn’t until I started going to Freedom Fest in the mid 00’s that I bumped into the Branden’s books (Judgment Day and the Passion of Ayn Rand) and asked the guys working the Laissez Faire Bookstore what they were about. I got caught up to speed real fast that day (in retrospect the look on everyone’s face at that table was pretty priceless). I never have read those books but I did pick up the Contested Legacy of Ayn Rand since I loved Kelly’s The Art of Reasoning, and discovered that whole mess as well. That led to “Fact of Value” which should have been a hint but I naively still didn’t get how far this had gone. No conflicts of interest, right?

Recently I finally got off my rear and started really looking online to meet other Objectivists. I went through some forums and blogs (I don’t know if I saw this one or not, I think not but some of the columns look familiar) but that is where I discovered this disappointing “culture” (for lack of a better word) of Objectivists literally eating each other alive. It’s almost pathological how gleefully some people love to trash someone they likely agree 90% with. Sorry, time to head off the rant. This is still too fresh and… disappointing. Metaphorically speaking I went looking for a few people in Atlantis to talk to and got Checking Premises. Not that I expected a perfect world but I certainly thought the universe would be more benevolent, so to speak. I can only imagine what this does to new people reading the books for the first time. I think that is what I find so frustrating. Part of me is fine with all of this since I have had 20+ years to get comfortable in my skin but those exploring these ideas for the first time are going to discover a mess. Someone needs a foot up their ass.

The positive is that I found a decent site in OO that seems to be neutral territory in all of this insanity and posting there led me through the Doctor to discover this site. This looks like it’s even more open to honest debate and ideas with none of the inane off limit topics or heresy people. Plus the articles I have read so far are a joy to read.

To wrap this, in addition to ideas (obviously) I’m a big fan of science fiction and fantasy art, but my big passion is music. I love Rock and Roll with an emphasis on classic, hard, and heavy metal (including some extreme branches). I actually wrote a column on it for years so hopefully I can contribute someway here eventually.

So hello and I’m really looking forward to reading through the site and getting to know people!

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Dan,

Welcome aboard.

Former truck driver?

You sound like good people already.

Michael

[Jonathan]

Greetings!

Welcome to OL! I used to watch The Life and Times of Grizzly Adams all the time. You were awesome in it!

To wrap this, in addition to ideas (obviously) I’m a big fan of science fiction and fantasy art, but my big passion is music. I love Rock and Roll with an emphasis on classic, hard, and heavy metal (including some extreme branches). I actually wrote a column on it for years so hopefully I can contribute someway here eventually.

Rock music is evil and objectively inferior, so you had better change your tastes and work on your defective sense of life and correct your severe psychological problems if you want to be a proper Objectivist.

J

[Dan Haggerty]

Dan,

Welcome aboard.

Former truck driver?

You sound like good people already.

Michael

Thank you.

Fun thing about the truck driving, I laughed outloud at dinner when I read the passage in Atlas Shrugged when Taggart is talking to the truck driver.

Wonderful site you have by the way!

[9thdoctor]

The positive is that I found a decent site in OO that seems to be neutral territory in all of this insanity and posting there led me through the Doctor to discover this site. This looks like it’s even more open to honest debate and ideas with none of the inane off limit topics or heresy people.

Welcome to OL. I just went to YouTube to see what “Spiral Architect” is all about, do you take the name from the Black Sabbath song, or the band that (I gather) has a big Rand influence? I’m not into rock music, but when I was a teenager I was, so I don’t go around hurling moral judgements like Jonathan’s doing above. BTW, in case you’re not familiar, he’s actually making fun of a New Zealander named Lindsay Perigo, who writes even stupider things while posing as an authority on Objectivism.

Anyway, I think you might be the first person to refer to me as “the Doctor”, which is of course the proper way to address a Time Lord, but no one around here does it. In fact, occasionally, someone on the losing end of a disagreement will try to score debating points by noting that I’m not, if fact, a doctor, as though I’m trying to pull one over on people.

I expect you’ll like it here. Compared to OO, disagreements or more apt to take on a bare knuckle brawl character, and threads are more likely to drift for lack of active moderation. Both approaches have their place, and there’s some, but not too much, overlap in the flora and fauna department.

[Dan Haggerty]

The reference is to the Black Sabbath song although it is also a personal quip I use since I manage truck drivers. Managing drivers is the equivalent of herding cats at times so the concept of building purpose out of chaos fits.

Actually, I don’t know who Perigo is. I just assumed Jonathan was making light of the references I alluded to in my post. The truth is I’m still navigating all of this mess in Objectivism with these personalities going off at each other. I have the bad feeling I have a lot to still catch up on to get to the “big picture”. Part of me just wants to say screw it but if I want to get involved I know I’ll need to get the 411 (and there seems to be a lot of it still).

I was using the proper Doctor Who reference. I love the show although I’m rather weak on all of the classic episodes. In fact, on the other site I’ve looked up your signature several times on the lark it might read “Bow ties are cool” in Latin.

Anyway, thanks man!

[9thdoctor]

Actually, I don’t know who Perigo is. I just assumed Jonathan was making light of the references I alluded to in my post.

He used to be pretty influential, but his demons got the better of him. Here you can see him unloading on all the music he hates. You might think it’s all tongue in cheek…well, believe it or not, it’s not.

http://www.solopassion.com/node/4585

In fact, on the other site I’ve looked up your signature several times on the lark it might read “Bow ties are cool” in Latin.

On OL I’m using the Latin translation of TANSTAAFL, which comes from Pynchon’s Mason and Dixon, and which in turn is a reference to Heinlein’s The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. On OO I currently have a quote from Popper about not deferring to authority, then a quote from Foucault’s Pendulum by Eco, which is explained here:

http://www.objectivi...indpost&p=93063

Taken together it’s pretty much a shot at the Checking Premises attitude towards genuflection. I was using a risqué quote from Catullus until someone made a big deal out of it on the date rape thread. After that I felt it had lost its freshness, so I decided it was time to switch it to something else.

http://forum.objecti...275#entry290062

[anthony]

"The 411"? Ha, radio code I guess.

Hi Dan.

I'd been enjoying stuff written by you at O.O - now, great to see you pitch up here as well.

Some similarities between us in being outside the O'ist loop so long.

I entered 3 years ago, I'm sure even more naive then you describe yourself, and it was

some catching up to do, on all the inner doings of Objectivism: Amazing! I didn't know anything.

Babe in the woods back then.

I've been having the sneaky feeling that it's no great disadvantage, though - to have not lived through

all the turmoil, personalities, politics etc. It could have been distracting from what it is all about in the end.

Welcome.

Tony

[Dan Haggerty]

"The 411"? Ha, radio code I guess.

Hi Dan.

I'd been enjoying stuff written by you at O.O - now, great to see you pitch up here as well.

Some similarities between us in being outside the O'ist loop so long.

I entered 3 years ago, I'm sure even more naive then you describe yourself, and it was

some catching up to do, on all the inner doings of Objectivism: Amazing! I didn't know anything.

Babe in the woods back then.

I've been having the sneaky feeling that it's no great disadvantage, though - to have not lived through

all the turmoil, personalities, politics etc. It could have been distracting from what it is all about in the end.

Welcome.

Tony

It helps to know I'm not the only one who went through this. Thanks man and looking forward to talking to you!

[Dan Haggerty]

Actually, I don’t know who Perigo is. I just assumed Jonathan was making light of the references I alluded to in my post.

He used to be pretty influential, but his demons got the better of him. Here you can see him unloading on all the music he hates. You might think it’s all tongue in cheek…well, believe it or not, it’s not.

http://www.solopassion.com/node/4585

That was somewhere between sad and funny.

[caroljane]

Anyway, I think you might be the first person to refer to me as “the Doctor”, which is of course the proper way to address a Time Lord, but no one around here does it. In fact, occasionally, someone on the losing end of a disagreement will try to score debating points by noting that I’m not, if fact, a doctor, as though I’m trying to pull one over on peoplflora and fauna department.

How soon you forget! I at least have referred to you as the Doctor, in verse no less!

Welcome to OL Dan. If you can manage truckers I'm sure you can manage OLers. We are a a mangy yowling delightful bunch, really.

Carol

Floret

[Jonathan]

Actually, I don’t know who Perigo is. I just assumed Jonathan was making light of the references I alluded to in my post.

That's right, I was making fun of the generally uptight attitude that is common in Objectivist circles, but Ninth is right that Pigero is a great example of the foolishness of that uptightness.

J

[studiodekadent]

Dan,

Welcome to OL.

I agree that the culture of Objectivism, so far, is disappointing. OL is an island of civility and levelheaded discussion (for the most part) surrounded by a sea of preposterous platonistic posturing by pretentious pigf**kers (pardon the language). Which is why this is the only Objectivist discussion board I can deal with.

It is relatively drama-free, so the majority of the time ideas are discussed without personal attack.

Basically, you can relax here. You don't need to feel like every single post you make is being monitored to try and find flaws in your character that betray philosophical impurity.

[Dan Haggerty]

Dan,

Welcome to OL.

I agree that the culture of Objectivism, so far, is disappointing. OL is an island of civility and levelheaded discussion (for the most part) surrounded by a sea of preposterous platonistic posturing by pretentious pigf**kers (pardon the language). Which is why this is the only Objectivist discussion board I can deal with.

It is relatively drama-free, so the majority of the time ideas are discussed without personal attack.

Basically, you can relax here. You don't need to feel like every single post you make is being monitored to try and find flaws in your character that betray philosophical impurity.

There is a story there but I'll ask another time. Thank's for the welcoming!

[PDS]

Dan: welcome!

I believe you will find the bonhomie of this site--by and among a diverse band of beaux-espirits-- most pleasing.

Speaking of which: where the hell did Jeff Riggenbach go off to? Was he felled by one too many smoked filled pipes, or did he merely flounce off whilst arm in arm with Phil Coates to some faraway cyber-land?

[anthony]

Dan: welcome! I believe you will find the bonhomie of this site--by and among a diverse band of beaux-espirits-- most pleasing.

Beaux-esprits, hey? Must say, there is a singular increase in French here, lately, and I'm all for it.

I love the language, and wouldnt mind increasing my schoolboy knowledge.

Which reminds me about the "esprit" of my old French master who has been 'pfff' -ing

in the back of my head since I wrote here the other day : "...comme Napoleon a dit, blah blah.."

I have the feeling it should have been "...comme a dit Napoleon - etc". I can't decide.

What say you William, PDS, Carol, Robert, or anyone 'expert en francais'? It's a small thing, but at least Prof Keene will rest easy.

[caroljane]

Dan: welcome! I believe you will find the bonhomie of this site--by and among a diverse band of beaux-espirits-- most pleasing.

Beaux-esprits, hey? Must say, there is a singular increase in French here, lately, and I'm all for it.

I love the language, and wouldnt mind increasing my schoolboy knowledge.

Which reminds me about the "esprit" of my old French master who has been 'pfff' -ing

in the back of my head since I wrote here the other day : "...comme Napoleon a dit, blah blah.."

I have the feeling it should have been "...comme a dit Napoleon - etc". I can't decide.

What say you William, PDS, Carol, Robert, or anyone 'expert en francais'? It's a small thing, but at least Prof Keene will rest easy.

Dan: welcome! I believe you will find the bonhomie of this site--by and among a diverse band of beaux-espirits-- most pleasing.

Beaux-esprits, hey? Must say, there is a singular increase in French here, lately, and I'm all for it.

I love the language, and wouldnt mind increasing my schoolboy knowledge.

Which reminds me about the "esprit" of my old French master who has been 'pfff' -ing

in the back of my head since I wrote here the other day : "...comme Napoleon a dit, blah blah.."

I have the feeling it should have been "...comme a dit Napoleon - etc". I can't decide.

What say you William, PDS, Carol, Robert, or anyone 'expert en francais'? It's a small thing, but at least Prof Keene will rest easy.

To my ear it sounds fine - it's a conversational choice, "As Napoleon said" not "so said Napoleon" - but I have not looked it up. I await input from other enthusiasts of la belle langue.

[william.scherk]

Carol, that gun-toting Neo-Hibernian, that socialist, she is right, again. It is plain and right to say comme Napoleon a dit (passé composé) to introduce the thing that the emperor did say, or is said to have said -- as we would say, As Washington has said, 'I lie like a blanket.' However, in French there is a plain and right and elegant usage for each circumstance -- and so there is indeed a perfect time to say, Comme a dit Napoleon. At the end of the phrase: 'Take me off this island,' comme a dit Napoleon.

However, bear in mind that there are tenses in French that do not always translate well into English. In English we have the simple past. He said is simple past (against he has said, he would have said, he was saying).

In the vast precision of French verb tenses, sadly, the simple past looks exactly like the present tense in the first and third person. So, cranky old Napoleon on St Helena was said to have said: Zut! Zut! Zut! Je m'en fou. Qu'est-ce qu'il dit? Quoi dit-il? S'il m'a dit oui, s'il me dit non, je m'en fou. Dites le lui!

Edited May 11, 2012 by william.scherk

[PDS]

Carol, that gun-toting Neo-Hibernian, that socialist, she is right, again. It is plain and right to say comme Napoleon a dit (passé composé) to introduce the thing that the emperor did say, or is said to have said -- as we would say, As Washington has said, 'I lie like a blanket.' However, in French there is a plain and right and elegant usage for each circumstance -- and so there is indeed a perfect time to say, Comme a dit Napoleon. At the end of the phrase: 'Take me off this island,' comme a dit Napoleon.

However, bear in mind that there are tenses in French that do not always translate well into English. In English we have the simple past. He said is simple past (against he has said, he would have said, he was saying).

In the vast precision of French verb tenses, sadly, the simple past looks exactly like the present tense in the first and third person. So, cranky old Napoleon on St Helena was said to have said: Zut! Zut! Zut! Je m'en fou. Qu'est-ce qu'il dit? Quoi dit-il? S'il m'a dit oui, s'il me dit non, je m'en fou. Dites le lui!

Are we certain that Napoleon was cranky on St. Helena? I would have thought that stint would have relaxed him abit, especially in contrast to his hasty exit from Russia, or having met his waterloo at Waterloo.

[william.scherk]

We have contextual certainty, yes, PDS. In this case, my point was that you can as easily and properly say Comme Dit Napoleon. This is the past, simple, and the present tense, fused into one. Since Napoleon is definitely past, everything he had to say has been said. He has no future tense. He no longer says anything, he no longer will say anything, he no longer can say anything. Yet he still speaks! So we say, Napoleon says, but everyone knows what we mean. Same in French. Whatever you say, somebody will know what you really mean.

Of course we remember nothing much of what Napoleon did say, just what he did.

Re cranky on St Helena, I speculate based on his earlier crankiness to the point of escape and seizing the throne of France, on Elba. Cranky moods can be dangerous, thus the mail boat to St Helena had cannon. But perhaps he had changed. We only have his letters. (Josephine, PISSED today. I think they are poisoning me, and there are no boats to commandeer. I cannot get my hands on any weapons)

I think he was the last major world-class monster dictator who did not fear execution. But sadly, I am probably wrong. An executed Bonaparte would still have spawned, and later Victoria Empress would still address Napoleon III, the sensible Emperor, who died when he was told to.

Edited May 16, 2012 by william.scherk