Are you middle-class?

[caroljane]

In preparation for the great Election Party Knees-Up and karaoke here on OL in Novemb er, I have been reading more political stuff than usual.

I know that middle class is an economic term although it has social connotations, and its meaning probably depends a lot on location and personal circumstances.

?But I am interested, do you consider that you or your family are middle-class? Do you think of mainstream America as middle-class?

All the politicians agree that the middle class is the real America and must be maintained...is this reasonable?

[Selene]

Yes.

Yes.

And Yes.

[syrakusos]

No. No. And No.

http://www.census.go...les/12s0692.xls

Once you goto the Statistical Abstract of the United States, you can mire yourself in data.

First, regardless of what the numbers are, there must be a "middle class." In a nation where the mode earn $2 a day, a "middle class" must exist by simple arithmetic.

Therefore, a better measure comes from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, a capitalist-globalist think tank. They publish a Quality of Life Survey (here).That survey is interactive. You can set the slides for what you consider important.

Also, the numbers from the Census Bureau hide a lot. What matters is not "most people" but you. Most people in America think that they are middle class, just as most people think that they are above average in intelligence and looks. It is not true.

Realize that the recent contraction of the economy put millions out of traditional employment, leaving millions more - and bringing in more- in government jobs that really do pay above average wages. The Austin-American Statesman ran an article this Sunday about the large number of self-employed people here. The non-statistical statement is that "most" of them now earn less as consultants with their own company brand name for their own labor, than they did when they had "real jobs." The numbers are up 9% over last year with some tens of thousands of persons and about 15% of the workforce here being "self-employed." I am sure that they consider themselves "middle class."

In truth, they are in the working poor. If you look at the Census numbers closely (again here as an XLS, but you can click "Back" and select PDF), the cut-off is $100,000 per year. Realize that in 2001, as a technical writer, I was paid $40 per hour. Now, after 10 years of inflation, I earn $30 per hour... and I am happy for it... but that $100K does not buy what it used to. We are all poorer. (My pay as a security guard did go from $7.50 per hour to $12 per hour, so the bottom-most poor are better off... or maybe it just war profits to me.) But there are Dual-Income Professionals who earn $250,000 and above, especially in the suburbs around Washington DC where they look like "private sector employees" because they work for lobbyists and think tanks. But also, consider that on the OrgTheory blogsite, Katherine Chen recently wrote about major departments at Big Name Schools that arrange a second job for a spouse to get the researcher they want. The numbers are large enough to write about. So, there are many "quarter-millionaires" who are the true "middle class" objectively, but who are a numerical minority, less than a quintile. That last quintile is a skew to the right, and those lower four are pushed to the left.

We have no middle class - or a very small one. What we have a huge population of working poor who think of themselves as middle class for cultural reasons. This weekend, I saw an objectively wealthy person loading his own U-Haul and carting up a 60-inch screen. I could have seen the same thing here in my objectively poor Mexican neighborhood. Middle class is cultural.

And it is good.

I fully endorse Dierdre McCloskey's idea of our bourgeois society. She says that our paradigm is neither Achilles nor St. Francis but Benjamin Franklin. We need bourgeois virtues because we are a middle class society of shopkeepers and clerks.

Politicians talks about the middle class because that is what people want to hear. If you told people that you want to help them get out of poverty by reducing the government, they would not understand the words.

[caroljane]

Another really good analysis.

I remember reading a book by Christopher Lasch about class in America, written in the 70s or 80s. I really enjoyed it. I must look it up and see if it still has relevance now.

[caroljane]

Another really good analysis.

I remember reading a book by Christopher Lasch about class in America, written in the 70s or 80s. I really enjoyed it. I must look it up and see if it still has relevance now.

Sorry, correction. I was thinking of Class by Paul Fussell. The Lasch book was Culture of Narcissism, I read them both about the same time,

[caroljane]

Rand's worldview definitely implies a class system, with the philosophers and wealth producers at the top, and everybody else...well, they better know their place.

[Mikee]

The philosopher kings are on the left you ignoramus.

[caroljane]

The philosopher kings are on the left you ignoramus.

Get to your kennel, pedagogue!

[anthony]

No class.

What is revealing is how instantly the recent Marxist-Socialist, new boardroom millionaires here in

South Africa, transform into upper-class elitists. Now, why's that? No integrity, at least.

For me, any "class" categorization is collectivist - even an economical one.

(I've never been strong on History, but Socialism did much to undermine the European class-

system, right? Thinking of Britain, I say that was a damn good thing. Top notch, old chap!

After that triumph, Socialism had nothing more. Europeans just don't know it yet.

For its leaders to have given up all that power and fallen on their swords is probably asking too much...)

[Mikee]

You are impenetrably willfully ignorant. Get back to your dark Canadian forest.

[caroljane]

Ive been there and I am back thanks. my poet's eye in a fine frenzy rolling "from earth to heaven and heaven to earth again" lit on the fridge which was full of "air.y nothing" so I got some pork chops from next door

.Philosopher kings are leftists like Donal Trump is an ephebe.

[caroljane]

ps you think my hide is impenetrable: Have you met my fellow Canadian jts? And his is a lot hairier, no spas ijnvolved!

[caroljane]

No class.

What is revealing is how instantly the recent Marxist-Socialist, new boardroom millionaires here in

South Africa, transform into upper-class elitists. Now, why's that? No integrity, at least.

For me, any "class" categorization is collectivist - even an economical one.

(I've never been strong on History, but Socialism did much to undermine the European class-

system, right? Thinking of Britain, I say that was a damn good thing. Top notch, old chap!

After that triumph, Socialism had nothing more. Europeans just don't know it yet.

For its leaders to have given up all that power and fallen on their swords is probably asking too much...)

I am guessing that you would define yourself roughly as middle class, if you had to .

[Selene]

Is it true that Socialists have no class...?

[caroljane]

Is it true that Socialists have no class...?

s

yes, absolutely!

[syrakusos]

Sorry to interrupt...

Are you middle class?

Here is a compilation of statistics about the average American.

http://www.newstrategist.com/store/index.cfm/feature/57_15/50-facts-about-the-average-american.cfm

The average American earns about $735 per week. I find that to be a stagnant figure. It annualizes to about $100 per day. When the Morgan Dollar was first struck, a cowboy made about $20 a month - room and board provided - and an industrial worker make a dollar a day at 10 cents per hour for a 10-hour day. The dollar has lost 99% of its value since then. But anyway, I cited the $100-a-day figure over a decade ago for an article in The Numismatist.

The fact that the "average" American (58%) has a job means that effective unemployment is 42% -- not 9%. As in Atlas Shrugged, everyone with a job supports many others who are unemployed.

The average American thinks that they are in good health, but the average American is overweight.

The average American household is $78,000 in debt, has a net worth of $96,000 but less than $100,000 in savings. How do we reconcile those numbers?

The average American does not know which party controls the House of Representatives.

[anthony]

No class.

What is revealing is how instantly the recent Marxist-Socialist, new boardroom millionaires here in

South Africa, transform into upper-class elitists. Now, why's that? No integrity, at least.

For me, any "class" categorization is collectivist - even an economical one.

(I've never been strong on History, but Socialism did much to undermine the European class-

system, right? Thinking of Britain, I say that was a damn good thing. Top notch, old chap!

After that triumph, Socialism had nothing more. Europeans just don't know it yet.

For its leaders to have given up all that power and fallen on their swords is probably asking too much...)

I am guessing that you would define yourself roughly as middle class, if you had to .

In Ah-frica?! Hah.

I'll let you in on something - at one time when young, I was drifting vaguely to socialism in large part because of "class", and my distaste of it..

The British Colonies my parents arrived in (post-War) had this joke the old-hands no doubt chortled into

their Whiskies and soda at the club, that a lower-class Englishman only had to set foot on Africa - and jump

one class higher. Because of course, in Africa there existed only two classes, Us and Them.

Forward to SA, 20 years on, where the double class system was crudely explicit - with the exception of a complex grading of immigrant nationalities within the White group, the politically connected Afrikaner top of the heap, English next, Greeks, Jews, italians and so on, after. But the 'other class' was still Black.

It took the timely intervention of an economist-writer (an Afrikaner, actually) to shockingly prove that whatever we all believed, South Africa was really socially and economically statist and SOCIALIST under apartheid, not capitalist (as was the accepted wisdom).

At more or less the same time, I read Rand's "Capitalism:The Unknown Ideal', which instantly switched me from my anarchist-socialist pretensions, and sealed my direction..

I suddenly, dazzlingly, found out that I had never experienced capitalism, didn't have the first notion of it - and nor had anyone else I knew of: that it was not the inherent cause, or effect, of classism - and it was not synonymous with racism, either. Anything but.

Africa, anyplace I can think of on this continent, has always had only two classes: the haves, and the haven'ts. Power and force continue to decide that. SA hasn't changed from its past.

Another race, with even more political power, with even greater wealth for those connected, that's all.

but I do realise class means something quite innocent, and less fraught, in the stable, settled First World.

Yeah, I'd probably be middle, there. Sorry for the roundabout route. Ask a simple question...

[Dan Haggerty]

I have to agree with whyNOT. I don't see myself as a group but an individual. When I was a truck driver people assumed I was poor to middle class when the truth was I made a damn good wage. When I took the office management job people thought I was middle class or higher but the realty was I took a wage cut to move into the office. When I had the corner office people thought I was rich but I was still making the same wage as a truck driver (although the benefits were better). Now that I cashed it in for health and sanity reasons to start over people assume I'm middle class due to my job and upper class due to my "pro-business politics" when the truth is our household income is usually lower then the person making the claim. Middle Class is cultural and not objective in how it is used.

Or if I can pretend to be the good Doctor for a moment, this explains my answer to that question and the occasional 99% nonsense:

@#$% - I couldn't get the embedding to work so here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/zalndXdxriI

[MrBenjamatic]

In preparation for the great Election Party Knees-Up and karaoke here on OL in Novemb er, I have been reading more political stuff than usual.

I know that middle class is an economic term although it has social connotations, and its meaning probably depends a lot on location and personal circumstances.

?But I am interested, do you consider that you or your family are middle-class? Do you think of mainstream America as middle-class?

All the politicians agree that the middle class is the real America and must be maintained...is this reasonable?

I remember in high school while in a language class, the teacher asked which economical class everyone (yes she said everyone) wants to be a member of. One girl answered upper class; she said she'd rather be rich than less rich. The correct answer said the teacher was middle class. I think that their use of the term middle class is a folly as not everyone wants to be middle class. They (the politicians) want to hold you down for the sake of holding you down; they steal your money, not because they want it for themselves, but because they want you not to have it. Politicans surround themselves with elegance and wealth and mansions because they believe that money gives value to individuals and not the other way around. No matter what economic class one belongs to, one has the right to use and dispose of offer to trade and give away that which is theirs and no one else's with no one else's permission so long as they don't initiate the use of force upon anyone else.

Incidentally, I can't seem to find out why many believe there is a difference between being wealthy and being rich. I've always thought that saying that is contemptible and I don't know why.

[Brant Gaede]

In preparation for the great Election Party Knees-Up and karaoke here on OL in Novemb er, I have been reading more political stuff than usual.

I know that middle class is an economic term although it has social connotations, and its meaning probably depends a lot on location and personal circumstances.

?But I am interested, do you consider that you or your family are middle-class? Do you think of mainstream America as middle-class?

All the politicians agree that the middle class is the real America and must be maintained...is this reasonable?

By the lower class or the upper class?

--Brant

if the working (middle) class took care of itself we wouldn't be in this sea of bullshit--instead it agrees to take care of everybody else first as long as it gets Social Security and Medicare second--two things it really can't afford any more and will be taken from them piece by piece and bit by bit while its children are enslaved by student loans and lack of employment

[caroljane]

Incidentally, I can't seem to find out why many believe there is a difference between being wealthy and being rich. I've always thought that saying that is contemptible and I don't know why.

There is no difference. Maybe the rich feel that "wealthy" sounds more genteel than "rich".

[MrBenjamatic]

In preparation for the great Election Party Knees-Up and karaoke here on OL in Novemb er, I have been reading more political stuff than usual.

I know that middle class is an economic term although it has social connotations, and its meaning probably depends a lot on location and personal circumstances.

?But I am interested, do you consider that you or your family are middle-class? Do you think of mainstream America as middle-class?

All the politicians agree that the middle class is the real America and must be maintained...is this reasonable?

By the lower class or the upper class?

--Brant

if the working (middle) class took care of itself we wouldn't be in this sea of bullshit--instead it agrees to take care of everybody else first as long as it gets Social Security and Medicare second--two things it really can't afford any more and will be taken from them piece by piece and bit by bit while its children are enslaved by student loans and lack of employment

Very well put.

[MrBenjamatic]

Incidentally, I can't seem to find out why many believe there is a difference between being wealthy and being rich. I've always thought that saying that is contemptible and I don't know why.

There is no difference. Maybe the rich feel that "wealthy" sounds more genteel than "rich".

Haha!

[Brant Gaede]

Incidentally, I can't seem to find out why many believe there is a difference between being wealthy and being rich. I've always thought that saying that is contemptible and I don't know why.

There is no difference. Maybe the rich feel that "wealthy" sounds more genteel than "rich".

Haha!

Rich strongly tends to money when talking about people. Wealth doesn't have to encompass money but usually does. It's a broader concept. You can say "You're a rich man," meaning more than money, but that's a particular literary usage, very delimited. There is also, such as, "That's rich!" One doesn't say "That's wealthy!"

--Brant

English, the world's greatest language--nothing else is even close

[caroljane]

Incidentally, I can't seem to find out why many believe there is a difference between being wealthy and being rich. I've always thought that saying that is contemptible and I don't know why.

There is no difference. Maybe the rich feel that "wealthy" sounds more genteel than "rich".

Haha!

Rich strongly tends to money when talking about people. Wealth doesn't have to encompass money but usually does. It's a broader concept. You can say "You're a rich man," meaning more than money, but that's a particular literary usage, very delimited. There is also, such as, "That's rich!" One doesn't say "That's wealthy!"

--Brant

English, the world's greatest language--nothing else is even close

Incidentally, I can't seem to find out why many believe there is a difference between being wealthy and being rich. I've always thought that saying that is contemptible and I don't know why.

There is no difference. Maybe the rich feel that "wealthy" sounds more genteel than "rich".

Haha!

Rich strongly tends to money when talking about people. Wealth doesn't have to encompass money but usually does. It's a broader concept. You can say "You're a rich man," meaning more than money, but that's a particular literary usage, very delimited. There is also, such as, "That's rich!" One doesn't say "That's wealthy!"

--Brant

English, the world's greatest language--nothing else is even close

Yes, and don't "strike it wealthy" or come up with "get-wealthy-quick" schemes, or have a "nouveau-wealthy" class.