Urban Scale of Thinking

[dennislmay]

Watching a WWII documentary reminded me of something I've observed many time over the last 30 years or so. In the documentary a German officer was talking about losing perspective while fighting in Russia - the area was so large with the lack of landmarks making it like negotiating a desert. If weather caused you to lose your horizon you had no idea where you were. The Russian strategy was to wait out the Germans and let the winter do its work. Another documentary on the tank war in Iraq noted that the Iraqi's strategies were sound if you ignored the development of GPS for travel and smart weapons - for the US there was no getting lost in the desert. In the German example it was obvious that living and fighting in population dense areas had given Hitler and those under him an incorrect perspective on vast opens areas. I have noted this with two German friends in the past. One girl had a brother with the impression that if he flew to Miami arriving in the morning he could drive to meet her in Missouri in the afternoon. Another German friend drove in a snowstorm from NW Iowa to North Central Nebraska - for hours asking if this country never ends. Years later a group of Japanese engineers visited us at work in Missouri - flying from the West Coast to Kansas City then driving 2 1/2 hours at 60+ mph to see some robotic machinery we had installed. They only had two things to talk about: they wanted to know how many people and how long it taken to design the layout of the robotic systems and the feed and takeaways - they were mystified that it was me alone and it took about 2 weeks [they sent 5 engineers and one interpreter from Japan to look at it]. Their other main concern was where in the world could they be that it would take 2 1/2 hours of high speed driving to see a setup they had only seen in the most advanced factories in Japan. The scale overwhelmed them.

A girl I once dated had a panic attack related to scale when she visited me in Missouri from Dayton. She had never been any further than Northern Kentucky in her life. As such she had never seen a clear night sky. We went to the local state park with some quality binoculars on a crystal clear fall night. I had her lay back on the car and look skyward. Seeing millions of stars where she only expected to see perhaps a hundred she panicked and had to go back to the house immediately. Good thing we weren't in rural Nebraska where you wouldn't even need the binoculars.

Scale interpretation was also a large reason the Germans failed in WWII. There is good reason to believe that Hitler's decision to not develop jet engines early and to wait till the end to design long range bombers cost him the war with Russia. Russia simply moved their factories too far for Hitler's bombers to reach them.

It seems if you pack people into cities they can be convinced of most anything: shortage of places for landfill [so you can swindle them with high garbage charges] being one good example. One of the goofiest urban scale ideas which has come to pass is the idea of farming in skyscrapers. I have read some of the theory behind such things - all I can say is damn - go visit a single family 1200 acre farm.

It was on a flight to North Carolina [crossing the great lakes] that it struck me how people must be entirely oblivious to scale to believe what they have been conned into believing about an "Ozone Hole" and global warming. If you pay attention on a long flight to everything man made on the surface of the Earth the entirety could be wadded up a ball and flow past in a matter of seconds. This perspective is lost when you're surrounded in a city.

Living in Dayton for over 5 years gave me urban crowding anxiety to some extent - I began to understand how city people develop an incorrect perspective on so many things. These urban dwellers overwhelm the rural areas politically while occupying a pipsqueak of the area of the US.

Packing people into cities seems to breed socialism. Policies driving people to the cities always seem to come from socialists. It seems they understand the frailties of the human mind very well.

Dennis

[Selene]

Dennis:

Excellent observations.

It is the anthill collective scale that compresses the individual's horizon to the nearest wall in the tunnels.

Look at how the Japanese created a defensive tunnel system on Iwo Jima.

The VC also had their tunnel warrens built into the jungle mountains.

Collectivism is a hive mentality.

A...

[dennislmay]

Dennis:

Excellent observations.

It is the anthill collective scale that compresses the individual's horizon to the nearest wall in the tunnels.

Look at how the Japanese created a defensive tunnel system on Iwo Jima.

The VC also had their tunnel warrens built into the jungle mountains.

Collectivism is a hive mentality.

A...

It is hard to imagine all the human effort put into digging defensive tunnels. Millions and millions of manhours and many tens of millions in supplies for what amounted to a delaying effort gaining weeks for the Japanese here and there, days or less in other places. Hiding places underground and static defenses don't work in total war. At most you gain a little time at horrible expense. Money and effort better spent elsewhere. Right strategy wrong kind of war for the Japanese - Vietnam was not total war so the VC had a real strategy.

Dennis

[Selene]

As to the Japanese correct.

My main General, Patton's statement that "Fixed fortifications are monuments to man's stupidity." is applicable to the Japanese.

[dennislmay]

As to the Japanese correct.

My main General, Patton's statement that "Fixed fortifications are monuments to man's stupidity." is applicable to the Japanese.

The lesson wasn't learned when castles fell to cannons, when the Maginot Line was simply bypassed, More recently

Saddam's generals learned that expensive German designed bunkers are just expensive tombs, the "cave" that

Osama was hiding in was in fact a house in an urban area because he didn't like what happens in remote caves -

saw that on the Military Channel.

Dennis

[syrakusos]

Dennis, good comments all in all. I will give my objections at the end. I have a similar story from Carl Zeiss. Before the Detroit office was opened, the technology office was in New York City. Some engineers came from Germany for a month or two. Over Christmas, they decided to visit Niagara Falls. "Ve drove for two and half hours!" they said. "Ja, you vere in Kanada!" "Nein, we vere still in New York!"</p>

Your point also applies to the emperors of China. Never leaving the Hidden City, some had lost all perspective of the size of the kingdom they ruled. Thought "ruled" might be a stretch as the bureaucracy functioned by tradition and inertia. Also, as a country 3000 years old with a continuous history of language and culture, it often can provide examples of whatever you want.

They even experienced occasional lifetimes and generations when merchants, commerce, and innovation were vibrant. Interestingly, for example, one case is the Southern Sung Dynasty (1100s - 1200s) when barbarians occupied the north and people fled to the southern capital, causing a renaissance in literature, culture, and commerce. On the other hand, many centuries earlier in the time of the Three Kingdoms (like 180 - 280 CE), the wars also ran along in parallel with a cultural upturn, perhaps caused or accentuated by contact and assimilation.

As for the city versus the country, I like to point out that Glenn T. Seborg came from Ishpeming, Michigan... but no other physicists did. He went to a city where the intellectual and cultural milieu could support science at his level. Scientists born in New York City did not flee to the wilds of northern Michigan to continue their researches in peace. Just to note, though, we do have examples of that, of scholars getting out into the rural areas to establish communities. Oxford is a perfect example. Of course, it soon became a city. It drew all manner of people, not just university dons -- who of course did no farming to support their academic work.

On the other hand, monasteries do provide examples of rural communities, with literary work, but they largely copied what had been handed down. Champagne bubbly wine was invented (discovered) in a monastery. Is another example available?

Historically innovation, trade, commerce, progress, and all that come from cities, as people from the rural areas migrate to the cities, bringing their skills. In classical Athens, the foreign Greeks ("metics") had no rights, but their being in Athens made it "the school of Hellas." In fact, classical Greece from the 700s to the 200s BCE consisted of about 1000 cities. That is what made the civilization vibrant. Florence, Milan, Genoa, and Venice of the Renaissance provide yet another exemplar. You never hear of world-changing events coming from the countryside.

Farms depend on cities for their technologies. Tractors are not built on farms. Iron for horseshoes did not come from farms. Brass for tack did not come from farms. Rural areas suffer crop failures, but the cities endure by buying food from farther away.

And, of course, of all the inventions born in cities, ideas about individual freedom must take some prominence. Farmers do not like change. Overwhelmingly, rural societies fear change, and so are conservative of traditions. In the cities, traditions are lost to fads and fancies, like the coffeehouses where modern insurance and commercial banking were created.

In fact, as for the major premise in the topic thread, city people - not country folk - have had a cosmopolitan view of the world, long millennia ago knowing that the world is round, when the Phoenicians circumnavigated Africa in 600 BCE. Granted, Isaac Newton put together his ideas on calculus and physics while on the farm, but he should have been doing farm work, not daydreaming under a tree. Imagine if he had stayed on the farm and not gone to Cambridge and then to London.

[caroljane]

People have weird inner geographical landscapes. For years my father patiently welcomed tourists with skis atop cars in July at the southern NB border, and dealt with their disappointment that the slopes were more than two hours away. Some of them were angry, and seemed to think he had personally duped them into expecting instant snow.

[BaalChatzaf]

Packing people into cities seems to breed socialism. Policies driving people to the cities always seem to come from socialists. It seems they understand the frailties of the human mind very well.

Dennis

Prior to the computer and communications explosion of the past 60 years, cities afforded the opportunity to meet with other people face to face and exchange idea. Written communication by itself is inadequate For some kinds of interaction face and body language are as important as verbal exchange. Now we can have all of that at a distance so the original need for cities is not as great as it once was.

High speed communication and high speed transportation of physical goods make the concentration of cities less necessary and less desirable than in earlier times.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[dennislmay]

Packing people into cities seems to breed socialism. Policies driving people to the cities always seem to come from socialists. It seems they understand the frailties of the human mind very well.

Dennis

Prior to the computer and communications explosion of the past 60 years, cities afforded the opportunity to meet with other people face to face and exchange idea. Written communication by itself is inadequate For some kinds of interaction face and body language are as important as verbal exchange. Now we can have all of that at a distance so the original need for cities is not as great as it once was.

High speed communication and high speed transportation of physical goods make the concentration of cities less necessary and less desirable than in earlier times.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Socialist politics have transformed cities from centers of creativity into dependency voter blocks keeping the socialist state growing. Wealth from rural and suburban areas is transferred into the socialist hub causing a continual drain of resources and young people from rural areas [young people following the money]. With the latest incarnation we have serious wealth transfer from rural and conservative states to urbanized states. Hence the interest in secession following the last election. Balkinization is what Rand's generation called it. The process is designed to grow power for the central state and allow looting and transfers on an unheard of scale. Whatever cities may have contributed in the past is the past. They are now power centers destoying the republic from within. Cities are very different in rural conservative states versus other states. Oklahoma City has mile after mile of busy industrial factories - factories exist in thousands of small towns scattered over the rural Midwest. There are many industries that have virtually no presence in urban states because there is no profit that can be made in that socialist atmosphere.

Dennis

[caroljane]

Packing people into cities seems to breed socialism. Policies driving people to the cities always seem to come from socialists. It seems they understand the frailties of the human mind very well.

Dennis

Prior to the computer and communications explosion of the past 60 years, cities afforded the opportunity to meet with other people face to face and exchange idea. Written communication by itself is inadequate For some kinds of interaction face and body language are as important as verbal exchange. Now we can have all of that at a distance so the original need for cities is not as great as it once was.

High speed communication and high speed transportation of physical goods make the concentration of cities less necessary and less desirable than in earlier times.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Yes, now we have, in Ed's fine phrase, "pinheads toiling away at the University of Google."

[BaalChatzaf]

Yes, now we have, in Ed's fine phrase, "pinheads toiling away at the University of Google."

Consider the alternatives. The first Communications Revolution was the invention of cheap paper. Everything else has been a rational increment to that.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[syrakusos]

Socialist politics have transformed cities from centers of creativity into dependency voter blocks keeping the socialist state growing. Wealth from rural and suburban areas is transferred into the socialist hub causing a continual drain of resources and young people from rural areas [young people following the money]. With the latest incarnation we have serious wealth transfer from rural and conservative states to urbanized states. Hence the interest in secession following the last election. Balkinization is what Rand's generation called it. The process is designed to grow power for the central state and allow looting and transfers on an unheard of scale. Whatever cities may have contributed in the past is the past. They are now power centers destoying the republic from within. Cities are very different in rural conservative states versus other states. Oklahoma City has mile after mile of busy industrial factories - factories exist in thousands of small towns scattered over the rural Midwest. There are many industries that have virtually no presence in urban states because there is no profit that can be made in that socialist atmosphere.

Dennis

Does this apply only to the USA? The largest migration in human history has been the flow of young people - mostly girls - from the rural areas to the cities of China. They work in factories. Imagine what the best of them will be doing in another 10 or 20 years, not burdened by a university education but schooled in production, logistics, and marketing. But they left behind the traditional Chinese values and now they adopt globalist ideas from western capitalism.

Did Sao Paolo drain Brazil's stalwart rustics of their republican virtues? What about Singapore? Does that city sap the virtues from the rural peoples there? Dakar in Senegal? Does this marxist looting apply only to American cities, and if so, why?

I do agree that Japan's farmers have long resisted the sentiments of the city and animosities are deep. Farming is subsidized and protected with tariffs so that Japan will always be able to feed itself. (They refuse to import cheaper rice from the USA.) Does that sound like a good theory to you? Do you think that would work well here? (Different from the way it is working for ADM already, that is.)

You lump suburban and rural Americans together, but rhe wealth of the suburbs does not begin there. They make their money in the city and then go home to the 'burbs at night. You speak of "rural states" like Oklahoma, but all states are rural, really, if you drive around in one. The prospertity in Oklahoma City comes from other causes, otherwise they would just have devolved into socialism -- or maybe that is happening now...

Oklahoma's Income Tax is 5.5% on incomes over $8.700 per annum, but Illinois is only 3% of Federal AGI and Michigan's is only 4.% of Federal AGI, so Oklahoma suffers more communist state looting that those two urbanized citified marxist states.

Local income or wage taxes can be a part of a sound tax system, particularly if revenue is used to reduce other taxes that may do more economic harm. Using local income tax revenue to reduce corporate income taxes or property taxes can still produce a friendly tax climate.

However, local-level taxes on wages and income are clustering in areas with poor business tax climates.

Tax Foundation here

Given the taxes in cities, it is hard to see how anyone would want to live or work there -- realize that if you work in the city as suburbanites do, typically, you pay city taxes. Oregon and Washington have a city-state income tax trade, so that people who commute are not taxed twice, but are taxed once for sure.

Both Michigan and Oklahoma have a 6% corporate tax rate (see Tax Foundation here).

It is hard to find a single tangible, even though socialist communist marxist ideology is universal through the public schools everywhere.

I do see all around me that Austin, Texas, is way better off than was Ann Arbor, Michigan. Both are one-party people's republics..,. and Austin is the state capital, larding on another layer of looting... and yet... it's better here. Go figure. Dennis, you are a physicist. Certainly, you must be willing to admit when a technical problem is one you have not (yet) solved. Well, this is a sociological problem. I have no solution. I just see the facts. I cannot explain them all with a consistent theory -- or more to the point I cannot find any consistency in your theory.

I can, nonetheless,offer substantiation for your claims that cities degrade us: near-sightedness. Raised indoors in clusters, we lost the ability to see far away easily. Books, television, and indoor living generally have taken away our ability. It may not be genetic (yet), but surely, children adapt quickly and firmly for their caged lives.

[Peter]

Ba'al Chatzaf wrote:

Prior to the computer and communications explosion of the past 60 years, cities afforded the opportunity to meet with other people face to face and exchange idea. Written communication by itself is inadequate For some kinds of interaction face and body language are as important as verbal exchange. Now we can have all of that at a distance so the original need for cities is not as great as it once was.

end quote

I was listening to Sean Hannity last night on the car radio as my wife shopped. He interviewed Californian Detective Mark Furman who investigated OJ when he slaughtered his wife and friend. Furman thinks the internet and video games have a huge affect on all young people and even more affect on people who lack social skills such as with Asperger’s Syndrome. Normal kids nowadays may have hundreds or thousands of “peers” who they have never met but never the less are influences and shapers of personality and opinion. I agree that face, body language, and socializing are essential to being “truly human.”

Ba'al Chatzaf wrote:

High speed communication and high speed transportation of physical goods make the concentration of cities less necessary and less desirable than in earlier times.

end quote

That is interesting from a sociological perspective. I know there are neighborhoods in New York City like small towns, as seen in a mythical Manhattan on the comedy show “Seinfeld,” but now we can immigrate to an area not protected by the castle walls and the NYPD and thrive. What if we go back to darker, more violent times? Will we rendezvous with like minded citizens in the cities again or develop enclaves outside the cities?

I think the election and the fiscal cliff talk has turned me DIM, ala Leonard P. and nihilistic to a degree and very disappointed in other Americans.

Peter

[dennislmay]

I think the election and the fiscal cliff talk has turned me DIM, ala Leonard P. and nihilistic to a degree and very disappointed in other Americans.

Can you explain DIM and the connection to Leonard Peikoff?

Dennis

[Peter]

Sorry, Dennis. I just found your old response, unread, on my email account.

Dennis wrote:

Can you explain DIM and the connection to Leonard Peikoff?

end quote

From Doctor Peikoff’s site:

One type of mindset works to integrate data by rational means (which Peikoff calls “Integration,” or for short “I”). Another seeks to integrate by non-rational means (“Misintegration,” or “M”). A third opposes integration of any kind (“Disintegration,” or “D”). Thus the acronym DIM. (One example of I is science; of M, religion; of D, non objective art.)

end quote

I was responding to the above “M” for mis-integration, and to Peikoff’s previously nihilistic advice to elect progressives, rather than conservative libertarians simply because he thought anti abortion conservatives wanted to destroy the Constitution and the freedoms it guarantees. I have since thought there was something truly “off” with Leonard, since the haters of freedom are the progressives. Could Herr Doctor be DIM? Social Conservatives like Ronald Reagan or Michelle Bachmann are wrong about many issues but they are not the evil I identify in the socialist / fascists.

I coupled that idea in my own mind with Rush Limbaugh’s term “low information voters” and ended up feeling depressed. The low information voters are nearly a majority, and they are blithely following the clucking from the Marxists and will soon be diving over the cliff like lemmings.

I have a hunch you are referring to another DIM hypothesis from physics.

Peter

[dennislmay]

Sorry, Dennis. I just found your old response, unread, on my email account.

Dennis wrote:

Can you explain DIM and the connection to Leonard Peikoff?

end quote

From Doctor Peikoff’s site:

One type of mindset works to integrate data by rational means (which Peikoff calls “Integration,” or for short “I”). Another seeks to integrate by non-rational means (“Misintegration,” or “M”). A third opposes integration of any kind (“Disintegration,” or “D”). Thus the acronym DIM. (One example of I is science; of M, religion; of D, non objective art.)

end quote

I was responding to the above “M” for mis-integration, and to Peikoff’s previously nihilistic advice to elect progressives, rather than conservative libertarians simply because he thought anti abortion conservatives wanted to destroy the Constitution and the freedoms it guarantees. I have since thought there was something truly “off” with Leonard, since the haters of freedom are the progressives. Could Herr Doctor be DIM? Social Conservatives like Ronald Reagan or Michelle Bachmann are wrong about many issues but they are not the evil I identify in the socialist / fascists.

I coupled that idea in my own mind with Rush Limbaugh’s term “low information voters” and ended up feeling depressed. The low information voters are nearly a majority, and they are blithely following the clucking from the Marxists and will soon be diving over the cliff like lemmings.

I have a hunch you are referring to another DIM hypothesis from physics.

Peter

I was only wondering what DIM meant concerning Peikoff. Another naive political error Peikoff makes is not understanding the degree to which Progressives have infiltrated the Republican party minimalizing the positive portions of the conservative moment. I am just as concerned about Progressives infiltrating and steering the libertarian movement - something many don't seem to see.

Dennis

[Peter]

Dennis wrote:

I was only wondering what DIM meant concerning Peikoff. Another naive political error Peikoff makes is not understanding the degree to which Progressives have infiltrated the Republican party minimalizing the positive portions of the conservative moment. I am just as concerned about Progressives infiltrating and steering the libertarian movement - something many don't seem to see.

end quote

I remember the left libertarians from Atlantis II. What was that guys name? Taranto or was it something else? It could be argued that they merely want Socialism on the voluntary, communal level but I think they are insane. I wish I could say something nicer but the truth is So Visible to me. The same goes for Rational Anarchism which is anything but rational. Accidental anarchism always leads to some form of gangs, statism, and coercion, and slavery before it moves on to better organized totalitarianism. Rational Anarchism which is supposedly “planned” is stupid twaddle. Oh well. I will stop there. Thanks for answering so quickly Dennis.

Peter

[dennislmay]

Dennis wrote:

I was only wondering what DIM meant concerning Peikoff. Another naive political error Peikoff makes is not understanding the degree to which Progressives have infiltrated the Republican party minimalizing the positive portions of the conservative moment. I am just as concerned about Progressives infiltrating and steering the libertarian movement - something many don't seem to see.

end quote

I remember the left libertarians from Atlantis II. What was that guys name? Taranto or was it something else? It could be argued that they merely want Socialism on the voluntary, communal level but I think they are insane. I wish I could say something nicer but the truth is So Visible to me. The same goes for Rational Anarchism which is anything but rational. Accidental anarchism always leads to some form of gangs, statism, and coercion, and slavery before it moves on to better organized totalitarianism. Rational Anarchism which is supposedly “planned” is stupid twaddle. Oh well. I will stop there. Thanks for answering so quickly Dennis.

Peter

The naive part of Anarcho Capitalism or Market Anarchy is the quality of people required for it to work. That kind of quality is not at hand.

Dennis

[syrakusos]

I think that the argument goes the other way. We must be omniscient or nearly so for a centralized state with a command economy. A metastable society works to everyone's benefit regardless of cupidity or stupidity. Ricardo's Law of Association shows that if A and B divide their tasks, work them exclusively and then trade, they both prosper, even if A performs both tasks better than B. This was proved with ninth grade algebra by Jerry Emanuelson about 1972 or so, but the original verbal argument from Ricardo on trade between England and France makes the point. This means that people can be fallible, ignorant, corrupt, and lazy, but if you leave them to it, they will all muddle along.

If you try to plan for other people, decide for them, you must fail. Simple physics indicates the inverse-square law: the farther you are from something, the less you know about it, by the square of the distance. I do not know what you need; you do not know what I can make.

But if we leave each other alone and mind our own business, when we meet, we will work something out to our mutual advantage.

This is one of the foundations of constitutional law in a republic: no one is good enough to rule other people well.

[Brant Gaede]

Sorry, Dennis. I just found your old response, unread, on my email account.

Dennis wrote:

Can you explain DIM and the connection to Leonard Peikoff?

end quote

From Doctor Peikoffs site:

One type of mindset works to integrate data by rational means (which Peikoff calls Integration, or for short I). Another seeks to integrate by non-rational means (Misintegration, or M). A third opposes integration of any kind (Disintegration, or D). Thus the acronym DIM. (One example of I is science; of M, religion; of D, non objective art.)

end quote

I was responding to the above M for mis-integration, and to Peikoffs previously nihilistic advice to elect progressives, rather than conservative libertarians simply because he thought anti abortion conservatives wanted to destroy the Constitution and the freedoms it guarantees. I have since thought there was something truly off with Leonard, since the haters of freedom are the progressives. Could Herr Doctor be DIM? Social Conservatives like Ronald Reagan or Michelle Bachmann are wrong about many issues but they are not the evil I identify in the socialist / fascists.

I coupled that idea in my own mind with Rush Limbaughs term low information voters and ended up feeling depressed. The low information voters are nearly a majority, and they are blithely following the clucking from the Marxists and will soon be diving over the cliff like lemmings.

I have a hunch you are referring to another DIM hypothesis from physics.

Peter

I was only wondering what DIM meant concerning Peikoff. Another naive political error Peikoff makes is not understanding the degree to which Progressives have infiltrated the Republican party minimalizing the positive portions of the conservative moment. I am just as concerned about Progressives infiltrating and steering the libertarian movement - something many don't seem to see.

Dennis

Let them. That's the nature of politics. They'll all go down together.

--Brant