Idaho bill would require students to read 'Atlas Shrugged'

[Backlighting]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/02/07/symbolic-idaho-bill-would-require-students-to-read-atlas-shrugged/

[Reidy]

From Thursday's WSJ: Best of the Web

Not Quite Getting the Concept

• "If men wish to deal with one another, they may do so only by means of reason: by discussion, persuasion and voluntary, uncoerced agreement."--Ayn Rand, "The Virtue of Selfishness," December 1963
• "Idaho Politician Proposes Making 'Atlas Shrugged' Required Reading"--headline, San Francisco Chronicle website, Feb. 6, 2013

[Backlighting]

From the article:

"State Sen. John Goedde introduced legislation on Tuesday that would
require Idaho secondary students to read and pass an examination on the
iconic 1957 novel touted by conservatives like Rep. Paul Ryan and Rush
Limbaugh.

The lawmaker, though, says the bill is meant more as a statement than
an actual proposed policy. Goedde, in a statement to FoxNews.com, said
media outlets have thus far “totally missed the point” of the bill — he
described the bill as a protest to a state Board of Education decision
to roll back online class requirements"

[BaalChatzaf]

From Thursday's WSJ: Best of the Web

Not Quite Getting the Concept

• "If men wish to deal with one another, they may do so only by means of reason: by discussion, persuasion and voluntary, uncoerced agreement."--Ayn Rand, "The Virtue of Selfishness," December 1963
• "Idaho Politician Proposes Making 'Atlas Shrugged' Required Reading"--headline, San Francisco Chronicle website, Feb. 6, 2013

That proposed Idaho law is so fracking perverse.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[caroljane]

What's the big deal? Nobody gets out of high school here without having read Anne of Green Gables or The Hockey Sweater or both. Atlas is longer and not as well written, true, but it won't hurt the youth of Idaho to tough out one novel at least in their lives.

[9thdoctor]

This is just a play for attention, I’m not reading anything more into it. Actually, I think it’s pretty cute. At least this politician isn’t apologizing
for Rand’s atheism, not yet anyway.

[syrakusos]

What's the big deal? Nobody gets out of high school here without having read Anne of Green Gables or The Hockey Sweater or both. Atlas is longer and not as well written, true, but it won't hurt the youth of Idaho to tough out one novel at least in their lives.

I hated literature and got through with Classics Illustrated comics. Atlas Shrugged and the other Ayn Rand fiction were all I read, except for occasional science fiction, which, of course, was not assigned reading either. You can require anything but you cannot force anything on a teenager.

Back about 1968 or 69, on Ed Sullivan, I forget if it was Godfrey Cambridge or who, but he said that if you want to get kids to go to church, put tanks in front of them and order the kids to stay away.

Requiring Atlas Shrugged would prevent the people who should read it from actually reading it.

[Kyle Jacob Biodrowski]

What's the big deal? Nobody gets out of high school here without having read Anne of Green Gables or The Hockey Sweater or both. Atlas is longer and not as well written, true, but it won't hurt the youth of Idaho to tough out one novel at least in their lives.

I hated literature and got through with Classics Illustrated comics. Atlas Shrugged and the other Ayn Rand fiction were all I read, except for occasional science fiction, which, of course, was not assigned reading either. You can require anything but you cannot force anything on a teenager.

Back about 1968 or 69, on Ed Sullivan, I forget if it was Godfrey Cambridge or who, but he said that if you want to get kids to go to church, put tanks in front of them and order the kids to stay away.

Requiring Atlas Shrugged would prevent the people who should read it from actually reading it.

I was going to address the concerns over requiring students to read AS, but Michael beat me to it.

Instead, I'll add to his comment.

It is true, at least in my case, that requiring students to do something actually makes them resent, not the requirement, but the activity being required.

When I was in middle school, for a certain class, we were required to read a certain number of books and then take a test on them for a grade. Well, I'm a slow reader. I failed the tests and, I think, failed the course.

I learned to hate reading.

Interestingly, what got me into reading, was reading Marilyn Manson's autobiography.

Give children basic instruction, leave them alone, and watch them go. Children love to learn, public schooling kills their desire to learn.

[caroljane]

Kyle, good grief. to hate literature is to hate life.

Live a little.

[studiodekadent]

What's the big deal? Nobody gets out of high school here without having read Anne of Green Gables or The Hockey Sweater or both. Atlas is longer and not as well written, true, but it won't hurt the youth of Idaho to tough out one novel at least in their lives.

Daunce,

Why, are you stereotyping and assuming that the youth of Idaho have never read a novel before?

And you think its not a big deal to FORCE someone to do something they don't want? Is it not a big deal for me to FORCE someone onto a rollercoaster they would find frightening? Is it not a big deal for me to FORCE someone to skydive? Why are you so "not a big deal" about FORCE?

Kyle, good grief. to hate literature is to hate life.

Live a little.

And forcing people to read WILL MAKE MORE PEOPLE HATE LITERATURE.

My father FORCED me to listen to Wagner when I was a kid and now I hate it (with the exception of his hit single, Ride Of The Valkyries).

I was FORCED to participate in sport as a kid. Now I hate it.

Does FORCING kids to eat their vegetables make them like vegetables?

If you want people to like literature, coercing them is the WORST way to do it. It is completely counterproductive.

You're a teacher, right? Well so was a specific relative of mine that I don't hold in high esteem. Is this "forcing people to do X is going to make them resent and loathe X" phenomenon something that teachers as a whole are incapable of understanding?

-----

Now, onto the topic at hand. Forcing kids to read Atlas Shrugged is stupid and counterproductive. It is also likely to be detrimental to the cause of freedom by making kids paradoxically associate freedom with BEING FORCED. The hypocrisy is so brutal that I feel nauseous.

[dldelancey]

My favorite book of all time (The Sound and the Fury) is a book that I was told NOT to read by my freshman English teacher. If we really want kids to pick up Atlas Shrugged, perhaps we should pass legislation that makes it illegal.

[anthony]

Mmm. Objectivism as an out-lawed Underground movement...Could work maybe.

[studiodekadent]

My favorite book of all time (The Sound and the Fury) is a book that I was told NOT to read by my freshman English teacher. If we really want kids to pick up Atlas Shrugged, perhaps we should pass legislation that makes it illegal.

I'm tempted to say "don't give the Obama administration any ideas!" but I'd actually like that because then it would instantly revoke all the left's counterculture cred and give it to Objectivism!

[syrakusos]

Kyle, good grief. to hate literature is to hate life.

Live a little.

As I said above, I hated literature in class. Oh, yes, a few things here and there got to me. "The Highwayman" and "Annbelle Lee" from the 7th grade were the only two poems I liked until I was 32 and my wife bought us both T-shirts writh Sonnet 116: "Let me not to the marriage of true minds..." And also from the 7th grade, "Dr. Heidegger's Experiment" (not that one, Kolker). But that is thin fare. I got by with comic book versions of everything I had to read. Even in German class, I slogged through literature. The thing is that for the SAT Achievement Tests, my score in German was higher than my score on the English Achievement Test (which, of course, had a lot of literature). My favorite German poem is "Ergo Bibamus!" What can I say?

But I loved grammar. I diagrammed sentences with a flourish! I never lost my love for grammar and the book I just yesterday returned to the library was The King's English, which was a silly book with some good points.

And algebra, I could not get enough of.I had five years of math in my four years of high school by going to summer school. When I had to meet a college requirement a few years ago, I took college algebra without a textbook and without a calculator and got an A. To hate algebra is to hate life.

Mere literature cannot compare to an algebraic proof. Oh, yes, geometric proofs are nice. I like geometry. However, algebraic proofs are exercises in Objectivist metaphysics. All you do with any algebraic proof is work the Given and To Prove as two sides of an equation and then reduce them to an identity. Then, you flip it over, starting with A is A and restate your case.

Show me any literature not written by Ayn Rand that can do that.

[Brant Gaede]

The basic problem, of course, is public education, which is all about force. Kids being forced from A to Z. I did not thrive in that environment. The lack of joy in learning left drudge.

--Brant

[syrakusos]

Well, yes, and we all should blush for giving Brant 14 chances to say the obvious.

I believe that children at age 6 are old enough to learn the alphabet by working as filing clerks.

You work from 6 to 36, retire a muilt-milliionaire and go to college to study fine art and philosophy. Look at the exponential curve of compound interest. Savings pays off later. Save now when you are young -- which young people never do. The problem - I mean the real problem - is to Objectify society so that the capitalist ethic is engrained as second nature.

We need to get back to Benjamin Franklin and Adam Smith as the bedrock for the skyscraper of Ayn Rand.

The Way to Wealth here. I wish that I had read it when I was a child.

[Samson Corwell]

What I have to say about forcing or "forcing" them to read books, and this is in reply to Michael E. Marotta and Brant Gaede in particular: while some readings may be required, the attitudes of some students is like "Oh. Okay. I'll read this.". Sometimes kids don't care either way and will just do it.

And a question for dldelancy: why did you teacher tell you not to read that book? Was it more like a suggestion instead?

[Brant Gaede]

What I have to say about forcing or "forcing" them to read books, and this is in reply to Michael E. Marotta and Brant Gaede in particular: while some readings may be required, the attitudes of some students is like "Oh. Okay. I'll read this.". Sometimes kids don't care either way and will just do it.

And a question for dldelancy: why did you teacher tell you not to read that book? Was it more like a suggestion instead?

And why don't they care? Not caring reflects the psychological heart of what is wrong with public--and imitative private--education. Kids are simply being educated to be social and state drones.

--Brant

[caroljane]

rt

What's the big deal? Nobody gets out of high school here without having read Anne of Green Gables or The Hockey Sweater or both. Atlas is longer and not as well written, true, but it won't hurt the youth of Idaho to tough out one novel at least in their lives.

Daunce,

Why, are you stereotyping and assuming that the youth of Idaho have never read a novel before?

And you think its not a big deal to FORCE someone to do something they don't want? Is it not a big deal for me to FORCE someone onto a rollercoaster they would find frightening? Is it not a big deal for me to FORCE someone to skydive? Why are you so "not a big deal" about FORCE?

Kyle, good grief. to hate literature is to hate life.

Live a little.

And forcing people to read WILL MAKE MORE PEOPLE HATE LITERATURE.

My father FORCED me to listen to Wagner when I was a kid and now I hate it (with the exception of his hit single, Ride Of The Valkyries).

I was FORCED to participate in sport as a kid. Now I hate it.

Does FORCING kids to eat their vegetables make them like vegetables?

If you want people to like literature, coercing them is the WORST way to do it. It is completely counterproductive.

You're a teacher, right? Well so was a specific relative of mine that I don't hold in high esteem. Is this "forcing people to do X is going to make them resent and loathe X" phenomenon something that teachers as a whole are incapable of understanding?

-----

Now, onto the topic at hand. Forcing kids to read Atlas Shrugged is stupid and counterproductive. It is also likely to be detrimental to the cause of freedom by making kids paradoxically associate freedom with BEING FORCED. The hypocrisy is so brutal that I feel nauseous.

SDK. you are too smart to equate a hatred of force (and hypocrisy) with a hatred for any objects or activities which are imposed by force. in and of themselves. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with novels, or sports, or vegetables except turnips and squash. Or Wagner's music although there was a lot wrong with Wagner Yet you have allowed your knee-jerk hatred of force and forcers to induce a hatred of at least two of these into adulthood.Things which might have been useful or pleasurable to you remain hateful, and your choices and understanding of human activities are lessened. I note you do not say thatit is universal or inevitable that we hate what is forced on us. By that logic, if you had been forced to read Atlas Shrugged you would hate it. I wonder how many of John Allison's employees loved it?

I mean no slur on the great state of Idaho. Youth anywhere, and at any time, do not want to read novels and teachers are burdened by curriculum into coaxing or threatening them into reading a few. however tedious the process is to all parties concerned.

Incidentally although a teacher I do not have to teach a set curriculum, my students are adults and the lessons are based on what they need and want most to learn. Plus what I know they have to learn if they are ever going to write a decent paragraph in English.

[caroljane]

Force exists from the state, from circumstance, from individuals, from the complex systems in which we live,from La Forza del Destino. Force is the bathwater, we need not throw the babies out with it.

[BaalChatzaf]

Who is this guy, Idaho Bill who would would dare force anyone to read something they did not want to read?

Ba'al Chatzaf

[caroljane]

Who is this guy, Idaho Bill who would would dare force anyone to read something they did not want to read?

Ba'al Chatzaf

lol, he is a direct descendant of Buffalo Bill. Shoot first and take the royalties later.

[studiodekadent]

rt

What's the big deal? Nobody gets out of high school here without having read Anne of Green Gables or The Hockey Sweater or both. Atlas is longer and not as well written, true, but it won't hurt the youth of Idaho to tough out one novel at least in their lives.

Daunce,

Why, are you stereotyping and assuming that the youth of Idaho have never read a novel before?

And you think its not a big deal to FORCE someone to do something they don't want? Is it not a big deal for me to FORCE someone onto a rollercoaster they would find frightening? Is it not a big deal for me to FORCE someone to skydive? Why are you so "not a big deal" about FORCE?

Kyle, good grief. to hate literature is to hate life.

Live a l

ittle.

And forcing people to read WILL MAKE MORE PEOPLE HATE LITERATURE.

My father FORCED me to listen to Wagner when I was a kid and now I hate it (with the exception of his hit single, Ride Of The Valkyries).

I was FORCED to participate in sport as a kid. Now I hate it.

Does FORCING kids to eat their vegetables make them like vegetables?

If you want people to like literature, coercing them is the WORST way to do it. It is completely counterproductive.

You're a teacher, right? Well so was a specific relative of mine that I don't hold in high esteem. Is this "forcing people to do X is going to make them resent and loathe X" phenomenon something that teachers as a whole are incapable of understanding?

-----

Now, onto the topic at hand. Forcing kids to read Atlas Shrugged is stupid and counterproductive. It is also likely to be detrimental to the cause of freedom by making kids paradoxically associate freedom with BEING FORCED. The hypocrisy is so brutal that I feel nauseous.

SDK. you are too smart to equate a hatred of force (and hypocrisy) with a hatred for any objects or activities which are imposed by force. in and of themselves. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with novels, or sports, or vegetables except turnips and squash. Or Wagner's music although there was a lot wrong with Wagner Yet you have allowed your knee-jerk hatred of force and forcers to induce a hatred of at least two of these into adulthood.Things which might have been useful or pleasurable to you remain hateful, and your choices and understanding of human activities are lessened. I note you do not say thatit is universal or inevitable that we hate what is forced on us.

Ahh yes, my hatred of force and forcers is "knee-jerk." No, it isn't RATIONAL to hate coercion, is it?

And I was attempting to insinulate that people are much more likely to hate X if they are forced to do X, than if they voluntarily discover X. I grant there are exceptions but I'm pointing out the strong tendency.

There's nothing wrong with novels, you're right. Most people end up hating the SPECIFIC novels forced upon them rather than "novels" categorically.