jts Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 http://rense.com/1.imagesH/worldstopmilitaryspender.jpgImagine all taxes are abolished and there are no taxes. Imagine government is support only by voluntary donations. Imagine you get to choose which part of government your voluntary donations go to. Would you voluntarily support mass murder war? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmj Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 yes, total war against an aggressor nation, and salt the soil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Delenda Cartago est! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmj Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 you're damn skippy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Sure. Depends entirely on legal and moral context. --Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jts Posted April 5, 2013 Author Share Posted April 5, 2013 A different question. Let's assume that you would voluntarily support mass murder war with your own money. Would you force others to involuntarily support the same mass murder war with their money, maybe on the ground that otherwise the mass murder war would not be funded enough to be successful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Jts, you keep using the word murder but you do not define it. Objectivists and most constitutionalists know that killing in self defense is not murder. There are provisions in war ethics to eliminate or lessen collateral damage, so that it is not murder. Other ethics explain when it is morally right to stop aggression by striking first. These distinctions are elementary but you do not acknowledge them. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jts Posted April 5, 2013 Author Share Posted April 5, 2013 Jts, you keep using the word murder but you do not define it. Objectivists and most constitutionalists know that killing in self defense is not murder. There are provisions in war ethics to eliminate or lessen collateral damage, so that it is not murder. Other ethics explain when it is morally right to stop aggression by striking first. These distinctions are elementary but you do not acknowledge them. PeterWho is crossing the Atlantic Ocean? Who is occupying whose country? Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction. Iraq was not responsible for 9-11. If financial support for war had to be voluntary, government would need to convince people that the war is not murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Jts, you keep using the word murder but you do not define it. Objectivists and most constitutionalists know that killing in self defense is not murder. There are provisions in war ethics to eliminate or lessen collateral damage, so that it is not murder. Other ethics explain when it is morally right to stop aggression by striking first. These distinctions are elementary but you do not acknowledge them. PeterWho is crossing the Atlantic Ocean? Who is occupying whose country? Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction. Iraq was not responsible for 9-11. If financial support for war had to be voluntary, government would need to convince people that the war is not murder.You are arguing ad hominid as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Imagine all taxes are abolished and there are no taxes. Imagine government is support only by voluntary donations. Imagine you get to choose which part of government your voluntary donations go to. Would you voluntarily support mass murder war?Imo the idea of a government being supported only by voluntairy donations is absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Angela wrote: Imo the idea of a government being supported only by voluntary donations is absurd. end quote It is not absurd. Paying for services rendered, national lotteries, etc., are voluntary things people do right now with State and County governments and free market businesses! Why would the law of supply and demand suddenly cease if national governments were the recipient? I agree that if taxation were voluntary the Western, Enlightenment Republics would not support their defense departments unless war were declared, and the proposed war was using *retaliatory* force. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jts Posted April 6, 2013 Author Share Posted April 6, 2013 Imagine all taxes are abolished and there are no taxes. Imagine government is support only by voluntary donations. Imagine you get to choose which part of government your voluntary donations go to. Would you voluntarily support mass murder war?Imo the idea of a government being supported only by voluntairy donations is absurd. What is the proper purpose of government? To protect individual rights.What are taxes? A violation of rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Imo the idea of a government being supported only by voluntairy donations is absurd. What is the proper purpose of government? To protect individual rights.What are taxes? A violation of rights.Government is a necessary evil (observe Somalia to see what happens when there is no government). A sufficient rate of taxation to maintain a defense is just one of the necessary evils that flow from the necessary evil of government.The basic problem is that there are evil people in the world. The only solution is to eliminate human evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dglgmut Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Imo the idea of a government being supported only by voluntairy donations is absurd. What is the proper purpose of government? To protect individual rights.What are taxes? A violation of rights.Government is a necessary evil (observe Somalia to see what happens when there is no government). A sufficient rate of taxation to maintain a defense is just one of the necessary evils that flow from the necessary evil of government.The basic problem is that there are evil people in the world. The only solution is to eliminate human evil.But who is going to eliminate the evil people, the people who are forcefully taking your money? Does a peaceful society depend on thugs at some level?The fact that American's have not voluntarily funded a competitive government may be something that supports your claim, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Imo the idea of a government being supported only by voluntairy donations is absurd. What is the proper purpose of government? To protect individual rights.What are taxes? A violation of rights.Government is a necessary evil (observe Somalia to see what happens when there is no government). A sufficient rate of taxation to maintain a defense is just one of the necessary evils that flow from the necessary evil of government.The basic problem is that there are evil people in the world. The only solution is to eliminate human evil. But who is going to eliminate the evil people, the people who are forcefully taking your money? Does a peaceful society depend on thugs at some level?The fact that American's have not voluntarily funded a competitive government may be something that supports your claim, though.Yes. As Orwell said, I know I sleep safe in my bed because somewhere in dark places, rough men do violence in my name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted April 7, 2013 Share Posted April 7, 2013 Dayaamm!Carol,What have you done in your formatting?Like four times at that?Whew!I'll fix it, then fix it again once I chop it down to size.MichaelEDIT: Ahhh... That's better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jts Posted April 7, 2013 Author Share Posted April 7, 2013 Imo the idea of a government being supported only by voluntairy donations is absurd. What is the proper purpose of government? To protect individual rights.What are taxes? A violation of rights.Government is a necessary evil (observe Somalia to see what happens when there is no government). A sufficient rate of taxation to maintain a defense is just one of the necessary evils that flow from the necessary evil of government.The basic problem is that there are evil people in the world. The only solution is to eliminate human evil.Even if government is a necessary evil, it does not follow that taxes are necessary. There is such a thing as voluntary donations.A government (to protect individual rights) supported by taxes (a violation of individual rights) is absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted April 7, 2013 Share Posted April 7, 2013 The basic problem is that there are evil people in the world. The only solution is to eliminate human evil.Even if government is a necessary evil, it does not follow that taxes are necessary. There is such a thing as voluntary donations.A government (to protect individual rights) supported by taxes (a violation of individual rights) is absurd.Try maintaining a modern military organization on voluntary donations. You have no idea of how expensive it is. The only way I can see it happening is if a bunch of Rich Guys got together and built a doomsday machine, and then dictated terms to the world. Of course, they must be willing to die by the sword that they have chosen to live by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted April 7, 2013 Share Posted April 7, 2013 Dayaamm!Carol,What have you done in your formatting?Like four times at that?Whew!I'll fix it, then fix it again once I chop it down to size. MichaelEDIT: Ahhh... That's better. I don't know! My computer is possessed by the devil.Thanks for the exorcism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jts Posted April 7, 2013 Author Share Posted April 7, 2013 Even if government is a necessary evil, it does not follow that taxes are necessary. There is such a thing as voluntary donations.A government (to protect individual rights) supported by taxes (a violation of individual rights) is absurd.Try maintaining a modern military organization on voluntary donations. You have no idea of how expensive it is. How can you specialize in logic and be so good at logic and not see the contradiction? People are forced to give their money to support a fight against tyranny. That is a contradiction.If you really believe people should give money to support a war, use reason to convince them, not force. Show them the evidence of weapons of mass destruction. Prove that they are intended to be used against your country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted April 7, 2013 Share Posted April 7, 2013 Even if government is a necessary evil, it does not follow that taxes are necessary. There is such a thing as voluntary donations.A government (to protect individual rights) supported by taxes (a violation of individual rights) is absurd.Try maintaining a modern military organization on voluntary donations. You have no idea of how expensive it is. How can you specialize in logic and be so good at logic and not see the contradiction? People are forced to give their money to support a fight against tyranny. That is a contradiction.If you really believe people should give money to support a war, use reason to convince them, not force. Show them the evidence of weapons of mass destruction. Prove that they are intended to be used against your country.The alternative is worse. Being taxed (at an appropriate rate) is the lesser of evils. The alternative is being open and defenseless against foreign attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jts Posted April 7, 2013 Author Share Posted April 7, 2013 Even if government is a necessary evil, it does not follow that taxes are necessary. There is such a thing as voluntary donations.A government (to protect individual rights) supported by taxes (a violation of individual rights) is absurd.Try maintaining a modern military organization on voluntary donations. You have no idea of how expensive it is. How can you specialize in logic and be so good at logic and not see the contradiction? People are forced to give their money to support a fight against tyranny. That is a contradiction.If you really believe people should give money to support a war, use reason to convince them, not force. Show them the evidence of weapons of mass destruction. Prove that they are intended to be used against your country.The alternative is worse. Being taxed (at an appropriate rate) is the lesser of evils. The alternative is being open and defenseless against foreign attack.You can't rationally convince people that they need to heavily support a war. They must be forced to support a war for their own good. You must use tyranny to fight tyranny.Why can't you rationally convince people that they need to heavily support a war? Do you not have facts and reason on your side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted April 7, 2013 Share Posted April 7, 2013 Even if government is a necessary evil, it does not follow that taxes are necessary. There is such a thing as voluntary donations.A government (to protect individual rights) supported by taxes (a violation of individual rights) is absurd.Try maintaining a modern military organization on voluntary donations. You have no idea of how expensive it is. How can you specialize in logic and be so good at logic and not see the contradiction? People are forced to give their money to support a fight against tyranny. That is a contradiction.If you really believe people should give money to support a war, use reason to convince them, not force. Show them the evidence of weapons of mass destruction. Prove that they are intended to be used against your country.The alternative is worse. Being taxed (at an appropriate rate) is the lesser of evils. The alternative is being open and defenseless against foreign attack.You can't rationally convince people that they need to heavily support a war. They must be forced to support a war for their own good. You must use tyranny to fight tyranny.Why can't you rationally convince people that they need to heavily support a war? Do you not have facts and reason on your side?If you set up a government with war powers the support is implicit from the start. Facts and reason then get layered on--or bullshit. Then the mob hits the street demanding the enemy's heads.--Brantpreferably on spikes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dglgmut Posted April 7, 2013 Share Posted April 7, 2013 Try maintaining a modern military organization on voluntary donations. You have no idea of how expensive it is. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jts Posted April 7, 2013 Author Share Posted April 7, 2013 Try maintaining a modern military organization on voluntary donations. You have no idea of how expensive it is. lol Suppose (just as an example) you are currently forced to pay $50,000 in tax per year toward war. Now suppose the tax is abolished. Why would you not voluntarily donate $50,000 per year toward war? Do you just talk the talk? Or do you also walk the walk? Do you have some doubt whether the war is necessary?If you voluntarily donated $50,000 per year toward war instead of being forced to pay $50,000 per year toward war, you might take a more active interest in how efficiently the money is being used. (Government tends to be inefficient in the use of money.) You might want to have some say in where the money is going. You might want better evidence of weapons of mass destruction and what they are intended for. You might want regular reports of the military's activities. All this would be good.Oh, voluntarily donating $50,000 per year is laughable. You would not do it voluntarily. But you are quite willing to be forced to pay the money as a tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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