Becoming American

[caroljane]

Are there clearly defined guidelines for new immigrants and their children, for becoming real Americans and integratiing into American society? I know there are here, for becoming Canadian. both official and unspoken.

Thoughts?

[Selene]

Are there clearly defined guidelines for new immigrants and their children, for becoming real Americans and integratiing into American society? I know there are here, for becoming Canadian. both official and unspoken.

Thoughts?

Carol:

There used to be. Who the hell knows with today's self hating Americans.

This was in the WSJ and is extremely revealing...http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324100904578404502145771288.html

The real story, wrote Mr. Klingenstein, was that "I explained my disapproval of 'diversity' as it generally has been implemented on college campuses: too much celebration of racial and ethnic difference," coupled with "not enough celebration of our common American identity."

Later,

This week, some 18 months and hundreds of pages of documentation later, the project is complete. Its picture of Bowdoin isn't pretty.

Related Video

Peter Wood, president of the National Association of Scholars, on a report detailing how identity politics have run wild at Bowdoin College. Photos: AP

Funded by Mr. Klingenstein, researchers from the National Association of Scholars studied speeches by Bowdoin presidents and deans, formal statements of the college's principles, official faculty reports and notes of faculty meetings, academic course lists and syllabi, books and articles by professors, the archive of the Bowdoin Orient newspaper and more. They analyzed the school's history back to its founding in 1794, focusing on the past 45 years—during which, they argue, Bowdoin's character changed dramatically for the worse.

It ain't your father's Ellis Island portal anymore...

A...

[Dglgmut]

That made my brain a bit nauseous.

[syrakusos]

Are there clearly defined guidelines for new immigrants and their children, for becoming real Americans and integratiing into American society? I know there are here, for becoming Canadian. both official and unspoken.

Thoughts?

Carol, if you know how to use Google, you can find the US Government Citizenship and Immigration Services.

http://www.uscis.gov/

They have the 100-question study guide in English, Spanish, and Chinese, the three official languages of the US Government. (Chinese is required only for the US Treasury and the US Department of Energy.) No, but seriously, folks....

Looking at the questions, like much else in our society, they are dumbed-down from my grandparents' time. My grandparents had to learn English well enough to take classes in English to pass a citizenship test. The textbook they used served me well through high school, in fact, and I always knew how the government worked, the Bill of Rights, and the broad provisions of the Constitution. (I still cannot name the Enumerated Powers, but I always knew that Article I defined the role of Congress.) Just for instance... So, it was a very thorough book at what was then (1920-1930) an eighth grade education level. What is required now is sad.

Question 13 asks to name one branch of government. My grandparents had to know all three and what they were and did.

Question 15 asks who makes Federal law with the answer being "Congress." That is incomplete, of course; and my grandparents had to know how a bill becomes law.

Moreover, these 100 questions with answers can be memorized out of context whereas my grandparents studied from a book that did not provide the answers to the test. The book had quizzes and tests and those did reflect the requirements of the citizenship test, but they did know going in to the test whether they would be asked about the First or Fourth Amendments, etc., etc.

As for the other part of your question, the easy answer is 'No." America was always an open-ended process made by the people. It would be wrong for the federal government to say, "This is how to be an American." Not voting is your right. Not showing the flag on national holidays is your right. To my grandparents, not going to church was their participation in the First Amendment. What does the Canadian government force people to do to prove their Canadianosity?

[syrakusos]

Adam, I started a topic under Politics based on your link to the WSJ story. I have more to add, but a different rubric would help. Thanks!

MEM

[caroljane]

Are there clearly defined guidelines for new immigrants and their children, for becoming real Americans and integratiing into American society? I know there are here, for becoming Canadian. both official and unspoken.

Thoughts?

Carol, if you know how to use Google, you can find the US Government Citizenship and Immigration Services.

http://www.uscis.gov/

They have the 100-question study guide in English, Spanish, and Chinese, the three official languages of the US Government. (Chinese is required only for the US Treasury and the US Department of Energy.) No, but seriously, folks....

Looking at the questions, like much else in our society, they are dumbed-down from my grandparents' time. My grandparents had to learn English well enough to take classes in English to pass a citizenship test. The textbook they used served me well through high school, in fact, and I always knew how the government worked, the Bill of Rights, and the broad provisions of the Constitution. (I still cannot name the Enumerated Powers, but I always knew that Article I defined the role of Congress.) Just for instance... So, it was a very thorough book at what was then (1920-1930) an eighth grade education level. What is required now is sad.

Question 13 asks to name one branch of government. My grandparents had to know all three and what they were and did.

Question 15 asks who makes Federal law with the answer being "Congress." That is incomplete, of course; and my grandparents had to know how a bill becomes law.

Moreover, these 100 questions with answers can be memorized out of context whereas my grandparents studied from a book that did not provide the answers to the test. The book had quizzes and tests and those did reflect the requirements of the citizenship test, but they did know going in to the test whether they would be asked about the First or Fourth Amendments, etc., etc.

As for the other part of your question, the easy answer is 'No." America was always an open-ended process made by the people. It would be wrong for the federal government to say, "This is how to be an American." Not voting is your right. Not showing the flag on national holidays is your right. To my grandparents, not going to church was their participation in the First Amendment. What does the Canadian government force people to do to prove their Canadianosity?

Interesting. I have taught Citizenship classes ("teaching to the test") and the guidelines and processes sound very similar.

I am not aware of anything the government forces people to do to prove their Canadianosity. I was thinking of the things the surrounding culture encourages them to do. My impression is that in the USA, so much larger and with such a different immigration pattern, the acculturation is more local than national. Newbies become Texans and Californians and New Yorkers, and so on. They create their own America. Here it is more that they try to conform to the Canada they find wherever they are, and they are encouraged to believe it is the same everywhere else.

We have had hand-wringing national identity crises in the past, but no anguished debates such as you have over what is "Real America"/

[syrakusos]

Carol,

Texas has been described as "the state that feels like a different country." By some proclamation or other, the Texas flag flies at the same level as the federal flag. No other state does that, to my knowledge. Short of that, though, my experience is that foreigners become Americans, not Ohioans or Clevelanders.

The immigrant communities themselves are stronger or weaker. Of all the groups I know, Slovenians are perhaps most supporting of their own community, not just in Cleveland or the USA and Canada, but even into Argentina. It's one big Slo' family. That said, though, while some did go back after the fall of communism, the overwhelming numbers stayed here as Americans. As for the other communities I know of, Italians and Hungarians, are much weaker and very happy to assimilate and leave the old country behind. My friends in school were Ukrainians, Poles, Lithuanians, etc., etc., and their parents embarrassed them, basically. Some tolerated Saturday schools (Ukie classes) for as long as they had to but never had any interest in the old culture. In fact, one time, in the sixth grade, the music teacher played Rimsky-Korsakov's "Russian Easter Overature" and the guy next to me announced that from now on he was going to pay more attention in church because they play "real music" after all.

We got Hungarian language publications in the house and listened to Hungarian language radio on Sundays. One of my uncles actually went back to visit about 1960 or 61 and my brother went back about 40 years later. I considered Central European University in Budapest for a doctorate, but never pursued it very far. It's the old country. We left. We're Americans.

And that brings up all the Mexican flags flying here in Texas. You know... it's right over there if you want to back ... No one is forcing you to stay...

[Selene]

Mike:

When did your extended family get here? Mine came in 1903 to 1905 in the primary move.

Did they speak English? If not, did they stress learning English?

A...

Post script: I agree with you starting that new thread. As soon as I got time I was going to with that article which I found astounding. However, I knew this was the state of most schools.

I have a particular love for the school because of my love and respect for Joshua Chamberlain, a professor of Rhetoric, when it was not miss defined as it is today.

As you probably know he somehow led and rallied his companies that held the left hand side of the Union Line facing Lee across the valley that rose up to the Confederate Lines on Seminary Ridge.

Lawrence Joshua Chamberlain was a quiet college professor when the Civil War began, but before it was over he became one of the Union's most celebrated officers - the hero of Little Round Top at Gettysburg and the man selected to accept Robert E. Lee's formal surrender at Appomattox.

After the war, Chamberlain returned to Brunswick, Maine and his teaching position at Bowdoin College. He was elected to four terms as Governor of the state of Maine and, later, became president of Bowdoin.

http://voices.yahoo.com/visit-historic-home-civil-war-hero-joshua-chamberlain-3080580.html

I thought he became President of Bowdoin College.

Apparently, Wiki and The Killer Angels agree:

Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain (September 8, 1828 – February 24, 1914),^[1] born as Lawrence Joshua Chamberlain, was an American college professor from the State of Maine, who volunteered during the American Civil War to join the Union Army. Although having no earlier education in military strategies, he became a highly respected and decorated Union officer, reaching the rank of brigadier general (and brevet major general). For his gallantry at Gettysburg, he was awarded the Medal of Honor. He was given the honor of commanding the Union troops at the surrender ceremony for the infantry of Robert E. Lee's Army at Appomattox, Virginia. After the war, he entered politics as a Republican and served four one-year terms of office as the 32nd Governor of Maine. He served on the faculty, and as president, of his alma mater, Bowdoin College.

Amazing man:

Battle of Gettysburg

Chamberlain achieved fame at the Battle of Gettysburg, where his valiant defense of a hill named Little Round Top became the focus of many publications and stories, including the novel The Killer Angels and the film Gettysburg.

Chamberlain's position on Little Round Top

On the second day of the Battle of Gettysburg, Union forces were recovering from initial defeats and hastily regrouping into defensive positions on a line of hills south of the town. Sensing the momentary vulnerability of the Union forces, the Confederates began an attack against the Union left flank. Sent to defend the southern slope of Little Round Top by Col. Strong Vincent, Chamberlain found himself and the 20th Maine at the far left end of the entire Union line. He quickly understood the strategic significance of the small hill, and the need for the 20th Maine to hold the Union left at all costs. The men from Maine waited until troops from the 15th Alabama Infantry regiment, under Col. William C. Oates, charged up the hill, attempting to flank the Union position. Time and time again the Confederates struck, until the 20th Maine was almost doubled back upon itself. With many casualties and ammunition running low, Col. Chamberlain recognized the dire circumstances and ordered his left wing (which was now looking southeast, compared to the rest of the regiment, which was facing west) to initiate a bayonet charge. From his report of the day: "At that crisis, I ordered the bayonet. The word was enough." While battlefield conditions make it unlikely that many men heard Chamberlain's order, most historians believe he initiated the charge.

Little Round Top, western slope, photographed by Timothy H. O'Sullivan, 1863.

The 20th Maine charged down the hill, with the left wing wheeling continually to make the charging line swing like a hinge, thus creating a simultaneous frontal assault and flanking maneuver, capturing 101 of the Confederate soldiers and successfully saving the flank. This version of the battle was popularized by the book, The Killer Angels and the movie, Gettysburg and there is a historical debate on the validity of this account.^[6] Chamberlain sustained two slight wounds in the battle, one when a shot hit his sword scabbard and bruised his thigh, and another when his right foot was hit by a spent bullet or piece of shrapnel. For his tenacity at defending Little Round Top he was known by the sobriquet Lion of the Round Top. Prior to the Battle, Chamberlain was quite ill, developing malaria and dysentery. Later, due to this illness, he was taken off active duty until he recovered.

For his "daring heroism and great tenacity in holding his position on the Little Round Top against repeated assaults, and carrying the advance position on the Great Round Top", Chamberlain was awarded the Medal of Honor.

Medal of Honor citation

Rank and organization: Colonel, 20th Maine Infantry. Place and date: At Gettysburg, Pa., July 2, 1863. Entered service at: Brunswick, Maine. Born: September 8, 1828, Brewer Maine. Date of issue: August 11, 1893.

Citation:

The President of the United States of America, in the name of Congress, takes pleasure in presenting the Medal of Honor to Colonel Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain, United States Army, for extraordinary heroism on 2 July 1863, while serving with 20th Maine Infantry, in action at Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, for daring heroism and great tenacity in holding his position on the Little Round Top against repeated assaults, and carrying the advance position on the Great Round Top.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Chamberlain

[caroljane]

Mike:

When did your extended family get here? Mine came in 1903 to 1905 in the primary move.

Did they speak English? If not, did they stress learning English?

A...

Post script: I agree with you starting that new thread. As soon as I got time I was going to with that article which I found astounding. However, I knew this was the state of most schools.

I have a particular love for the school because of my love and respect for Joshua Chamberlain, a professor of Rhetoric, when it was not miss defined as it is today.

As you probably know he somehow led and rallied his companies that held the left hand side of the Union Line facing Lee across the valley that rose up to the Confederate Lines on Seminary Ridge.

Lawrence Joshua Chamberlain was a quiet college professor when the Civil War began, but before it was over he became one of the Union's most celebrated officers - the hero of Little Round Top at Gettysburg and the man selected to accept Robert E. Lee's formal surrender at Appomattox.

After the war, Chamberlain returned to Brunswick, Maine and his teaching position at Bowdoin College. He was elected to four terms as Governor of the state of Maine and, later, became president of Bowdoin.

http://voices.yahoo.com/visit-historic-home-civil-war-hero-joshua-chamberlain-3080580.html

I thought he became President of Bowdoin College.

Apparently, Wiki and The Killer Angels agree:

>

Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain (September 8, 1828 – February 24, 1914),^[1] born as Lawrence Joshua Chamberlain, was an American college professor from the State of Maine, who volunteered during the American Civil War to join the Union Army. Although having no earlier education in military strategies, he became a highly respected and decorated Union officer, reaching the rank of brigadier general (and brevet major general). For his gallantry at Gettysburg, he was awarded the Medal of Honor. He was given the honor of commanding the Union troops at the surrender ceremony for the infantry of Robert E. Lee's Army at Appomattox, Virginia. After the war, he entered politics as a Republican and served four one-year terms of office as the 32nd Governor of Maine. He served on the faculty, and as president, of his alma mater, Bowdoin College.

Amazing man:

Battle of Gettysburg

Chamberlain achieved fame at the Battle of Gettysburg, where his valiant defense of a hill named Little Round Top became the focus of many publications and stories, including the novel The Killer Angels and the film Gettysburg.

Chamberlain's position on Little Round Top

On the second day of the Battle of Gettysburg, Union forces were recovering from initial defeats and hastily regrouping into defensive positions on a line of hills south of the town. Sensing the momentary vulnerability of the Union forces, the Confederates began an attack against the Union left flank. Sent to defend the southern slope of Little Round Top by Col. Strong Vincent, Chamberlain found himself and the 20th Maine at the far left end of the entire Union line. He quickly understood the strategic significance of the small hill, and the need for the 20th Maine to hold the Union left at all costs. The men from Maine waited until troops from the 15th Alabama Infantry regiment, under Col. William C. Oates, charged up the hill, attempting to flank the Union position. Time and time again the Confederates struck, until the 20th Maine was almost doubled back upon itself. With many casualties and ammunition running low, Col. Chamberlain recognized the dire circumstances and ordered his left wing (which was now looking southeast, compared to the rest of the regiment, which was facing west) to initiate a bayonet charge. From his report of the day: "At that crisis, I ordered the bayonet. The word was enough." While battlefield conditions make it unlikely that many men heard Chamberlain's order, most historians believe he initiated the charge.

Little Round Top, western slope, photographed by Timothy H. O'Sullivan, 1863.

The 20th Maine charged down the hill, with the left wing wheeling continually to make the charging line swing like a hinge, thus creating a simultaneous frontal assault and flanking maneuver, capturing 101 of the Confederate soldiers and successfully saving the flank. This version of the battle was popularized by the book, The Killer Angels and the movie, Gettysburg and there is a historical debate on the validity of this account.^[6] Chamberlain sustained two slight wounds in the battle, one when a shot hit his sword scabbard and bruised his thigh, and another when his right foot was hit by a spent bullet or piece of shrapnel. For his tenacity at defending Little Round Top he was known by the sobriquet Lion of the Round Top. Prior to the Battle, Chamberlain was quite ill, developing malaria and dysentery. Later, due to this illness, he was taken off active duty until he recovered.

For his "daring heroism and great tenacity in holding his position on the Little Round Top against repeated assaults, and carrying the advance position on the Great Round Top", Chamberlain was awarded the Medal of Honor.

Medal of Honor citation

Rank and organization: Colonel, 20th Maine Infantry. Place and date: At Gettysburg, Pa., July 2, 1863. Entered service at: Brunswick, Maine. Born: September 8, 1828, Brewer Maine. Date of issue: August 11, 1893.

Citation:

The President of the United States of America, in the name of Congress, takes pleasure in presenting the Medal of Honor to Colonel Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain, United States Army, for extraordinary heroism on 2 July 1863, while serving with 20th Maine Infantry, in action at Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, for daring heroism and great tenacity in holding his position on the Little Round Top against repeated assaults, and carrying the advance position on the Great Round Top.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Chamberlain

He watered the tree of liberty indeed.

Thank you for introducing me to a hero, Adam.

[PDS]

Mike:

When did your extended family get here? Mine came in 1903 to 1905 in the primary move.

Did they speak English? If not, did they stress learning English?

A...

Post script: I agree with you starting that new thread. As soon as I got time I was going to with that article which I found astounding. However, I knew this was the state of most schools.

I have a particular love for the school because of my love and respect for Joshua Chamberlain, a professor of Rhetoric, when it was not miss defined as it is today.

As you probably know he somehow led and rallied his companies that held the left hand side of the Union Line facing Lee across the valley that rose up to the Confederate Lines on Seminary Ridge.

Lawrence Joshua Chamberlain was a quiet college professor when the Civil War began, but before it was over he became one of the Union's most celebrated officers - the hero of Little Round Top at Gettysburg and the man selected to accept Robert E. Lee's formal surrender at Appomattox.

After the war, Chamberlain returned to Brunswick, Maine and his teaching position at Bowdoin College. He was elected to four terms as Governor of the state of Maine and, later, became president of Bowdoin.

http://voices.yahoo.com/visit-historic-home-civil-war-hero-joshua-chamberlain-3080580.html

I thought he became President of Bowdoin College.

Apparently, Wiki and The Killer Angels agree:

&am

p;gt

;

Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain (September 8, 1828 – February 24, 1914),^[1] born as Lawrence Joshua Chamberlain, was an American college professor from the State of Maine, who volunteered during the American Civil War to join the Union Army. Although having no earlier education in military strategies, he became a highly respected and decorated Union officer, reaching the rank of brigadier general (and brevet major general). For his gallantry at Gettysburg, he was awarded the Medal of Honor. He was given the honor of commanding the Union troops at the surrender ceremony for the infantry of Robert E. Lee's Army at Appomattox, Virginia. After the war, he entered politics as a Republican and served four one-year terms of office as the 32nd Governor of Maine. He served on the faculty, and as president, of his alma mater, Bowdoin College.

lockquote>

Amazing man:

>Battle of Gettysburg

Chamberlain achieved fame at the Battle of Gettysburg, where his valiant defense of a hill named Little Round Top became the focus of many publications and stories, including the novel The Killer Angels and the film Gettysburg.

Chamberlain's position on Little Round Top

On the second day of the Battle of Gettysburg, Union forces were recovering from initial defeats and hastily regrouping into defensive positions on a line of hills south of the town. Sensing the momentary vulnerability of the Union forces, the Confederates began an attack against the Union left flank. Sent to defend the southern slope of Little Round Top by Col. Strong Vincent, Chamberlain found himself and the 20th Maine at the far left end of the entire Union line. He quickly understood the strategic significance of the small hill, and the need for the 20th Maine to hold the Union left at all costs. The men from Maine waited until troops from the 15th Alabama Infantry regiment, under Col. William C. Oates, charged up the hill, attempting to flank the Union position. Time and time again the Confederates struck, until the 20th Maine was almost doubled back upon itself. With many casualties and ammunition running low, Col. Chamberlain recognized the dire circumstances and ordered his left wing (which was now looking southeast, compared to the rest of the regiment, which was facing west) to initiate a bayonet charge. From his report of the day: "At that crisis, I ordered the bayonet. The word was enough." While battlefield conditions make it unlikely that many men heard Chamberlain's order, most historians believe he initiated the charge.

Little Round Top, western slope, photographed by Timothy H. O'Sullivan, 1863.

The 20th Maine charged down the hill, with the left wing wheeling continually to make the charging line swing like a hinge, thus creating a simultaneous frontal assault and flanking maneuver, capturing 101 of the Confederate soldiers and successfully saving the flank. This version of the battle was popularized by the book, The Killer Angels and the movie, Gettysburg and there is a historical debate on the validity of this account.^[6] Chamberlain sustained two slight wounds in the battle, one when a shot hit his sword scabbard and bruised his thigh, and another when his right foot was hit by a spent bullet or piece of shrapnel. For his tenacity at defending Little Round Top he was known by the sobriquet Lion of the Round Top. Prior to the Battle, Chamberlain was quite ill, developing malaria and dysentery. Later, due to this illness, he was taken off active duty until he recovered.

For his "daring heroism and great tenacity in holding his position on the Little Round Top against repeated assaults, and carrying the advance position on the Great Round Top", Chamberlain was awarded the Medal of Honor.

Medal of Honor citation

Rank and organization: Colonel, 20th Maine Infantry. Place and date: At Gettysburg, Pa., July 2, 1863. Entered service at: Brunswick, Maine. Born: September 8, 1828, Brewer Maine. Date of issue: August 11, 1893.

Citation:

The President of the United States of America, in the name of Congress, takes pleasure in presenting the Medal of Honor to Colonel Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain, United States Army, for extraordinary heroism on 2 July 1863, while serving with 20th Maine Infantry, in action at Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, for daring heroism and great tenacity in holding his position on the Little Round Top against repeated assaults, and carrying the advance position on the Great Round Top.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Chamberlain

He watered the tree of liberty indeed.

Thank you for introducing me to a hero, Adam.

Daunce: if you get a chance, rent the movie Gettysberg and you will be sure to enjoy the portrayal of Chamberlain. You will also get a kick out of Martin Sheen's portrayal of Robert E. Lee.

Appropos of nothing, my great grandfather fought in the Civil War under General Sherman. As far as I can tell, not too many people living have a great grandfather who fought in the Civil War, and I am a spry (and mere) 50 years old. My wife's family (great, great, grandfathers) owned slaves and were officers in the Confederate Army. My daughter could be a member of the United Daughters of the Confederacy, and she gets to hear stories of the Civil War far too often at the dinner table.

I guess I do have a point: "being American" is sometimes complex, and if there were a test, it would be hard to teach to that test...

[Selene]

My pleasure Carol:

He has been a personal hero of mine since I was about 12 or 13 when my two (2) cousins and I would play the Avalon Hill Strategic game of Gettysburg which was as close to advanced war gaming as you could get then.

It would literally take three or four days to complete the battle game because of its complex, accurate real time rules.

We would enhance it during the day by going out into the pristine woods around the Delaware River and literally "play" the battle out with real rifles, .22 caliber rifles. We would emulate the one round rule and "mentally keep time" before taking the next shot.

The opposition were cans set up in different formations and different terrain. We literally submersed ourselves into a real virtual historical mental frame.

Quite exhilarating! And we learned history, problem solving, strategic decision making, camouflage, etc.

Can you imagine that being done with today's nanny state!

[caroljane]

My pleasure Carol:

He has been a personal hero of mine since I was about 12 or 13 when my two (2) cousins and I would play the Avalon Hill Strategic game of Gettysburg which was as close to advanced war gaming as you could get then.

It would literally take three or four days to complete the battle game because of its complex, accurate real time rules.

We would enhance it during the day by going out into the pristine woods around the Delaware River and literally "play" the battle out with real rifles, .22 caliber rifles. We would emulate the one round rule and "mentally keep time" before taking the next shot.

The opposition were cans set up in different formations and different terrain. We literally submersed ourselves into a real virtual historical mental frame.

Quite exhilarating! And we learned history, problem solving, strategic decision making, camouflage, etc.

Can you imagine that being done with today's nanny state!

I don't know about today, but in elementary school we had to pass through the rifle range to get to music class. The cadets entertained themselves by shooting at us. We learned a lot about terrain and quick problem solving, and stopped envying our cousins across the bridge who got to dive under desks to practice surviving the A-Bomb.

[caroljane]

And when we got to music class the excitement lessened considerably. as the school could not afford any AV equipment let alone instruments, except triangles. A challenge to the teacher to say the least. He was reduced to telling us about music, lives of composers, and giving handouts on the so-called plots of operas. Talk about dancing about architecture.

So mostly we sang, of course. Every year we put on a musical in the auditorium, usually a G&S operetta, brilliantly accompanied by the long-suffering Mr Smythe on the one and only musical instrument in the building.

[Selene]

I don't know about today, but in elementary school we had to pass through the rifle range to get to music class. The cadets entertained themselves by shooting at us. We learned a lot about terrain and quick problem solving, and stopped envying our cousins across the bridge who got to dive under desks to practice surviving the A-Bomb.

Carol:

Leads to quickness and agility. Here is the info on the movie. The book is excellent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettysburg_%281993_film%29

List of actors is at the bottom...also the score to the movie is gut wrenchingly emotional, you can almost here the Confederacy dying in its underlying cords.

Also, the cinematography is spectacular in its sweep.

PDS:

Fascinating info. Great heritage in your family!

A...

[BaalChatzaf]

Chamberlain was also a Appomattox Court House when Lee surrendered his troops to Grant. Grant left strict orders with his people that there should be no crowing about the victory and the acceptance of surrender should be very respectful. J.L. Chamberlain arranged that as Lee's troops marched to lay down their battle flags and arms, the Union troops line the way snapped their rifles to present arms as the Confederates marched by. It was a salute and and sign of respect to the defeated army of Lee. In a way, the healing that had to follow the war started right there at the surrender.

That is the kind of great spirited and magnanimous man J.L. Chamberlain was.

[Selene]

The Killer Angels (1974) is a historical novel by Michael Shaara that was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for Fiction in 1975. The book tells the story of the three days of the Battle of Gettysburg in the American Civil War: June 30, 1863, as the troops of both the Union and the Confederacy move into battle around the town of Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, and July 1, July 2, and July 3, when the battle was fought. The story is character driven and told from the perspective of various protagonists. A film adaptation of the novel, titled Gettysburg, was released in 1993.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Killer_Angels

FYI: Thomas Chamberlain. Joshua's brother served in the same company as a Lieutenant.

A practice/policy that finally was ended with the five Sullivan brothers dying around November 13th, 1942.

The Sullivan brothers were five siblings who were all killed in action during or shortly after the sinking of the light cruiser USS Juneau (CL-52), the vessel on which they all served, around November 13, 1942, in World War II.

The Sullivans, natives of Waterloo, Iowa, were the sons of Thomas (1883-1965) and Alleta Sullivan (1895-1972). They were:

• George Thomas Sullivan, 27 (born December 14, 1914), Gunner's Mate Second Class (George had been previously discharged in May 1941 as Gunner's Mate Third Class.)
• Francis "Frank" Henry Sullivan, 26 (born February 18, 1916), Coxswain (Frank had been previously discharged in May 1941 as Seaman First Class.)
• Joseph "Joe" Eugene Sullivan, 24 (born August 28, 1918), Seaman Second Class
• Madison "Matt" Abel Sullivan, 23 (born November 8, 1919), Seaman Second Class
• Albert "Al" Leo Sullivan, 20 (born July 8, 1922), Seaman Second Class

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sullivan_brothers

[BaalChatzaf]

The Killer Angels (1974) is a historical novel by Michael Shaara that was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for Fiction in 1975. The book tells the story of the three days of the Battle of Gettysburg in the American Civil War: June 30, 1863, as the troops of both the Union and the Confederacy move into battle around the town of Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, and July 1, July 2, and July 3, when the battle was fought. The story is character driven and told from the perspective of various protagonists. A film adaptation of the novel, titled Gettysburg, was released in 1993.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Killer_Angels

FYI: Thomas Chamberlain. Joshua's brother served in the same company as a Lieutenant.

A practice/policy that finally was ended with the five Sullivan brothers dying around November 13th, 1942.

The Sullivan brothers were five siblings who were all killed in action during or shortly after the sinking of the light cruiser USS Juneau (CL-52), the vessel on which they all served, around November 13, 1942, in World War II.

The Sullivans, natives of Waterloo, Iowa, were the sons of Thomas (1883-1965) and Alleta Sullivan (1895-1972). They were:

• George Thomas Sullivan, 27 (born December 14, 1914), Gunner's Mate Second Class (George had been previously discharged in May 1941 as Gunner's Mate Third Class.)
• Francis "Frank" Henry Sullivan, 26 (born February 18, 1916), Coxswain (Frank had been previously discharged in May 1941 as Seaman First Class.)
• Joseph "Joe" Eugene Sullivan, 24 (born August 28, 1918), Seaman Second Class
• Madison "Matt" Abel Sullivan, 23 (born November 8, 1919), Seaman Second Class
• Albert "Al" Leo Sullivan, 20 (born July 8, 1922), Seaman Second Class

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sullivan_brothers

After the misfortune of the Sullivan family, the government made it a policy not to place family members at the same positing and not to draft into combat all the sons of a family with several sons lest there be no male heirs to survive the war.

[Selene]

A la Saving Private Ryan - a great movie!

[caroljane]

What a relatively unsung hero Chamberlain was. I will try to find the movie. Robert E. Lee was also a hero, a man of such honour that if things had gone the other way, I think he could have been a president to rival Lincoln in stature.

[Selene]

What a relatively unsung hero Chamberlain was. I will try to find the movie. Robert E. Lee was also a hero, a man of such honour that if things had gone the other way, I think he could have been a president to rival Lincoln in stature.

Post Appomattox, when Lee returned home, the first Sunday that he attended church, he walked forward with a Negro and they both prayed together before the brethren.

Such leadership by example is what made men follow him anywhere.

Newt's post Gettysburg trilogy is brilliant****. The what if Lee had followed Longstreet's powerful argument about a strategic withdrawal from Gettysburg to better defensive lines around a powerful railroad hub that would place him slightly between Washington and Meade which would have been a brilliant solve to the positions at Gettysburg.

This was particularly true because Lee's key "eyes," the eccentric and brilliant, Jeb Stuart, with his fast and agile cavalry arm was off pissing away time and communications being a pompous fool raiding a railroad junction and depriving Lee of key military information around the battlefield.

.****

An alternative history trilogy of the Civil War that stands comparison to the Killer Angels trilogy by the Shaaras. Newt Gingrich's 3 books are:

• Gettysburg

  Grant Comes East

  Never Call Retreat

http://cascoly.hubpages.com/hub/Gettysburg-and-the-Civil-War-the-Newt-Gingrich-version