Frank's Niece!

[Cathy]

KacyRay, you were one of my doubters weren't you? Do you believe me now? I think I've gotten over the first hurdle on everyone knowing who I am and not a so called sock puppet, or a so called troll. Now I have to sort out all this memories, that now apparently keep flooding back into my mind and can't stop. I suppressed so much...its unbelievable! But I am not going to say anymore about what I remember until I get them straight in my head. Some are fuzzy and I can't remember the years of when things happened, and I don't want the critics telling me it wasn't so. So until then, I stand firm on what I have already said...it happened and it is what it is regardless of what anyone thinks. I don't want to come away with those impressions of my uncle, because that is not the person I knew, but then again, neither was Aunt Alice. ~Cathy~

[Brant Gaede]

Cathy, Rand flew to Oregon via Los Angeles in 1963 (with the Brandens). I doubt if they stopped in Ohio on that trip. It was Rand's first airplane flight.

Rand and Frank could easily have gone to Ohio a few times without public muss and fuss. I didn't know they went to Ouray, CO, for instance, in the mid 60s, until that big auction of Rand stuff several years ago. There was a postcard from CO from Ayn addressed to a woman who was taking care of their cats while they were gone. How many people interested in Rand today know that?

Michael, re the affair, in the inner circle around Rand it seems only Joan Blumenthal suspected what was going on. As for others--students of Objectivism--maybe a few scattered here and there. A lot of people, not me, figured out that there had been one after the break even though Nathaniel Branden did not go so far in his explanation of it in '68. The big problem with the affair is it made the four principals live a lie respecting everyone else, in addition to the lie amongst themselves about what they were really doing. Rand made that context and those lies out of what she wanted sexually-romantically. I'd guess it was to protect the publication of Atlas and her own reputation. This helped in turn turn Nathaniel into a liar to her as it all came back to slap her in the face when it all blew up. As Barbara said, Ayn loved him "with all her heart."

--Brant

[Cathy]

Brant, why didn't she just divorce Uncle Frank? He deserve better than that! Why did he stay??? Was being with someone better than being alone? I know it wasn't money, Aunt Agnes had money and she would have taken care of him, plus he could have gotten alimony. It just seems like over the years he was a beaten man and just gave up...and it is so sad to me that he lived through all that. I can understand why my father was so angry...and that's the only thing I understand about the O'Connor's. ~Cathy~

[Brant Gaede]

She loved Frank. You'll do better to read Barbara's bio of Rand than to get into ad hoc discussions on this sort of thing. You'll get a lot more context. Michael would do a better job of explaining this here than I. I'm more purely an essentializer and I hesitate to elaborate too much on some things for I know the reader will only get further from the truth. Barbara, for instance, closely knew Rand for over 18 years. She would therefore be better able than anyone here to answer your question accurately, but nonetheless in the necessary course of things it is Rand from her perspective filtered through her psychology. If I had known Rand closely for 18 years--I only met her once but saw her quite a few times in a public way--and written a bio of her the results would have been quite different. Both Barbara's bio and my hypothetical bio would of necessity been half memoir--as hers was--and in Nathaniel's case it was all memoir. You only get a tactile sense of Rand today by watching her videos and reading her books. In contrast, my grandfather Irving Brant wrote a six-volume bio of President James Madison. Over 20 years of research and writing. No memoir. He made use of the tremendous amount of material left behind most of it in the Library of Congress. The tactile sense of the man you get therein is mostly from his intellectual-political life. The scholarship is so impeccable you'd be a fool to write a subsequent bio of Madison without using it for major supplementary research.

--Brant

without Barbara's bio of Rand there would be so much distorting unhuman nonsense about Rand herself and what went on, Rand would have ended up as a stupid caricature for the ages

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Michael, re the affair, in the inner circle around Rand it seems only Joan Blumenthal suspected what was going on. As for others--students of Objectivism--maybe a few scattered here and there. A lot of people, not me, figured out that there had been one after the break even though Nathaniel Branden did not go so far in his explanation of it in '68.

Brant,

Just to be clear, I meant my comments to refer to after the break (1968) up to the publication of The Passion of Ayn Rand (1986).

(EDIT: I just realized, that was the 18 years I was talking about, but the number of years of Rand's involvement with the Brandens before that was also 18 years. I wonder if there is an 18 year cycle thing going on here. )

That break, including the rumors of the affair, really screwed up a lot of people. I wasn't around back then, but I can easily imagine a couple, one favoring each side of the break, shouting at each other before they themselves break up, and nasty comments or insinuations about the affair get included in the shouting just to piss the other one off.

Michael

[Reidy]

As I may have mentioned in this very forum, I heard about the affair as gossip a year or two after the Great Kiboshing. It was too weird to believe, so I didn't, until BB's book came out.

[Neil Parille]

If Rand did make several visits to Ohio, they were most likely and the way to or from other events, such a speaking engagements. I don't think there were all that many in the Midwest or the west.

-Neil Parille

[Ellen Stuttle]

Cathy, Rand flew to Oregon via Los Angeles in 1963 (with the Brandens).

Rand was in Los Angeles after Oregon, in Chicago before, so I'd expect they flew to Portland, Oregon, direct from O'Hare.

Here are announcements from the September,1963, Objectivist Newsletter. I'll leave out the contact information:

On Saturday, September 28, Ayn Rand and Nathaniel Branden will appear on the Chicago television program, "Kup's Show" (ABC, Channel 7, 12 midnight-3:00 A.M.).

On Sunday, September 29, Ayn Rand will give a major public address at McCormick Place in Chicago. Her talk is entitled "America's Persecuted Minority: Big Business." [....]

On Wednesday, October 2, Ayn Rand will receive an honorary Doctor of Letters degree from Lewis and Clark College in Portland, Oregon. On October 1 and 2, the entire student body and faculty of the college will be engaged in a series of discussions of Miss Rand's books. Nathaniel Branden will participate in a discussion of The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged. On October 1, Miss Rand will deliver an introductory talk; on October 2, she will deliver a lecture entitled "Is Atlas Shrugging?" which will be open to the public. [....]

On October 4, 8 and 9 respectively, Nathaniel Branden Institute will begin its fall series on "Basic Principles of Objectivism" in San Francisco, San Diego and Los Angeles. Mr. Branden will deliver the opening lecture in each city in person. Miss Rand will join Mr. Branden in extended question periods following each of these three lectures. The remainder of the course is given via tape transcription.

[Next is a listing of fall starting dates for the "Basic Principles of Objectivism" course, with the information that]:

Mr. Branden will deliver the opening night's lecture in person in Chicago [October 11], Milwaukee [October 13], Toronto [October 21], Philadelphia [October 24], Washington [October 27] and Boston [November 1].

[....]

On Monday, October 14, the course on "Basic Principles of Objectivism" will begin in New York City. [....]. Miss Rand will participate in the question period which follows the lecture.

So...

Rand and Branden were together September 28 - October 9.

On October 11, Branden was in Chicago. Where Rand was isn't stated.

On October 14, Rand was in New York City.

Logistically, Rand could have gone to the Cleveland area while Branden went to Milwaukee (where he gave the course opening lecture on October 13).

This isn't to say she did go through Cleveland, just that she could have.

About her not liking flying, Barbara says that once that first flight was underway, Rand enjoyed herself enormously, so maybe she lost her hesitancy to fly. (I don't remember if Barbara says anything about subsequent flights.)

There were also trains - in those days good ones - from Chicago in all directions.

Ellen

[Neil Parille]

On page 333, Heller says that Rand never saw her American cousins again after the Chicago, 1963 meeting. At that event, some members of the O'Connor family were there as well. She writes that Rand's family was upset that Rand didn't come to the funeral of Burt Stone n 65 and after that "all communications ceased." She also discusses some other breaks. But she doesn't say anything one way or the other about the O'Connor family, which you would expect if Frank and Ayn never saw them again.

So I wouldn't discount the possibility of a later visit or two to Ohio and frequent phone conversations. On the other hand it is very unlikely that there were yearly visits to Ohio for a substantial period in the 50s and 60s.

-Neil Parille

[Ellen Stuttle]

http://www.solopassion.com/node/5103#comment-119889

Neil,

Barbara proofread the document too?

1961 or 62 were the dates given.

Ellen

Actually, he says "around 62." I think Heller said '61 or '62.

[Neil Parille]

Ellen, I sent a copy of the 2008 final version to Barbara and she corrected a few typos and made a couple of suggestions. It's a stretch to say she proofread, if by that one means comparing my quotes to the original sources, etc. I have no reason to think she did that.

-Neil Parille

[Brant Gaede]

If I was an adult admirer of Rand and a relative and she visited my home my memories would be sharp and vivid. If I were a child/young teenager who knew not these things save she and hers were distant relatives I'd have rather very vague memories absent some nutty event during the visit.

--Brant

[Jonathan]

Cathy,

I just thought I'd mention that you may want to be aware of a little bit of the history of some of the people who are now responding to you online, and some of the severe personality and emotional problems that they have.

Lindsay Perigo, the owner of Solopassion, is a very hateful Objectivist zealot and can be a very angry and abusive person. Several years ago, he was trying to establish himself as an Objectivist leader, and he charmed his way into many people's lives and made a lot of connections with people who were associated with Rand and/or Objectivism, and who were very visible and accomplished, including Barbara Branden.

Eventually, one by one, Perigo turned on all of these people. When he thought that he had become a rising star in the "movement," and that he had acquired a following and some influence, rather than continuing to charm others, he began to abuse them. Sometimes he would later apologize for his behavior, sometimes not. Barbara reached a point where she was no longer willing to accept his apologies. She told him that she expected him stop his bad behavior. She stood up against him and his attacks on her and others. This enraged him, and he once again verbally lashed out at Barbara, and then she left SOLO.

He's still obviously very upset that she ended her friendship with him. He takes every opportunity to blame her for one thing or another, as do many of his followers at SOLO (I know that I may seem odd to hear people described as "followers," but that's what they are: they're kind of a tribe that hates Barbara, and if someone doesn't join them in hating Barbara, they accuse that person of being in obedience to Barbara!).

They want you to join the tribe, and to hate like they do. They want to make you think that Barbara said and did things that she didn't. Their comments to you aren't really about you and your family and your memories. They're just about getting even with Barbara because she wouldn't tolerate Perigo's abuse.

As others here have suggested, you should read Barbara's book for yourself if you want to know what she said about Ayn and Frank. Perigo and his friends and followers are not telling the truth.

J

[Brant Gaede]

SOLO has become a denatured version of its old self. Most of the brainy wackos have left.

--Brant

I'd be more concerned about Objectivism-Online--spreading this conversation over any more forums

[Jonathan]

I don't think the conversation would be allowed on OO. Cathy would very quickly be put on moderation there, or be banned, for saying some of the harmless stuff that she has said here and on solopassion.

[Ellen Stuttle]

So I wouldn't discount the possibility of a later visit or two to Ohio and frequent phone conversations. On the other hand it is very unlikely that there were yearly visits to Ohio for a substantial period in the 50s and 60s.

-Neil Parille

http://www.solopassion.com/node/5103#comment-119789

Cathy says - Thu, 2013-04-25 02:21

I've seen Alice at my mother's house when her and my father were divorced once. And her and Frank Cam e to my father's house 4-5 times when we lived there.

Where do you get "yearly" visits?

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

Cathy,

I've sometimes wondered how the on-line Objectivist community would look to an outsider who had no idea what all the quarrels are about. Rather like a nut house, I'd imagine.

About memories....

A technique I've found helpful in trying to bring back times and sequences is to try to remember other things which were happening in the same time frame as you think a memory is from. For instance, you might try to date recollections of "Alice" according to what grade of school you were in. Or any other associated details you can date.

Ellen

[Cathy]

I'm am so confused. I am trying little by little to sort out all of this...knowing one thing and then finding it was something else. Maybe I should have re-stated the yearly thing. I didn't see them often, but I can clearly remember seeing them 6 times. Some of them times could have been when we were with my mother...since I can't recall what the surrounding was. When Aunt Alice taught us the Russian prayer, it was diffenanlty when we were with our mother. that was up until 66. I know of 3 clear times they were at my dads, I remember where they were sitting how they were sitting, and they always came in cold weather...they always had coats on when they came and Uncle Frank always wore a brown felt brimmed hat with a ribbon around it with a bow on the ribbon, and when he was sitting he would cross his legs and his legs (to me) looked very long. Those times would be between 66 and 71. These visits are very clear to me..because.each time they would visit Uncle Frank had a new magic trick to show us and I remember everyone of them. The picture you have of my Aunt Alice in your heading, her hair is neater than what I remember...her hair wasn't slicked down like that, actually, it always looked a little wind blown. The first memory I have of Aunt Alice (so far) is when she came to mothers and taught us the prayer. That time it must have been warmer weather because she wore a short sleeve pink shell like top. All the other times I seen her she wore dark clothes. The reason this memory stands out is because, we never heard an accent before. She must have liked my mother because my dad and my mom wasn't together anymore by this time. We were getting ready for bed and both my mom and Aunt Alice stood in our bedroom as we were saying our prayers...I knew she was leaving after they put us to bed. She sat down on my bed and said Do you want to hear a prayer in Russian? She said that was a prayer her mother taught her when she was a little girl our age.That is how we learned the Russian prayer...it was a prayer...not a lullaby. That so far is my first memory of her. As I look back, I don't remember her wearing necklaces or ear rings. I am not sure about rings. I know of one time she wore a black or navy blue skirt white blouse with black or navy blue jacket over the blouse, black small heeled shoes. She wore a pin on that jacket. She had one side of her hair bobby pinned back, the other side came down along her face. Her hair was always the same length every time I saw her which was short. I don't know why they didn't tell anyone of these trips, or they just didn't tell Barbara. I don't know why they listed my father' s nick name, Bill instead of John. I'm not going to any other sites...but I don't know why I would be banned. I knew she wrote books, I knew Uncle Frank painted and my dad played poker..to me it was just something they did. Then I find out she was an author, then it just kept getting bigger until someone said she was the philosopher of the century. It just kept getting bigger all at once. So when I sarcastically said Something about that...someone said there maybe more implications to that statement. This is what I meant...she had no problem telling people how to live, had no problem teaching people how to live, and had no problem telling how our government should be ran ...but couldn't voice anything when it came to us. She wanted to clean up everyone and everything else except what was right in front of her. ~Cathy~

[caroljane]

SOLO has become a denatured version of its old self. Most of the brainy wackos have left.

--Brant

I'd be more concerned about Objectivism-Online--spreading this conversation over any more forums

It is good fun following remaining wackos though. Did you notice, Dog B, is now sweet-talking Cathy? !!! After receiving an honourable proposal from a prominent Objectivist too. We knew the guy was desperate, but hitting on a married woman... oh wait, he is a true-blue Randian. It must be OK.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Carol,

There is a person posting over there named Claire. Looking at her profile to see who she was since she said she didn't post over here, I saw it is Ginny.

Good Lord!

Did that bring up a skeleton and not one of my finer episodes.

I fear I have wronged Ginny in one of those weird things that happen in life. And it was kept in place by something weirder. But I will not back off from being responsible for it.

I owe her a letter, an explanation and an apology.

Ginny is really good people.

I will get on this shortly

Michael

[caroljane]

Carol,

There is a person posting over there named Claire. Looking at her profile to see who she was since she said she didn't post over here, I saw it is Ginny.

Good Lord!

Did that bring up a skeleton and not one of my finer episodes.

I fear I have wronged Ginny in one of those weird things that happen in life. And it was kept in place by something weirder. But I will not back off from being responsible for it.

I owe her a letter, an explanation and an apology.

Ginny is really good people.

I will get on this shortly

Michael

I noticed her there and she posted something so similar to what I did here, that I mentioned her upthread. If she thinks like me she must be good people!

[Ellen Stuttle]

Nathaniel, like Barbara, doesn't mention the Chicago and McCormick Place part of the 1963 trip to Portland, Oregon, where Rand received an honorary doctorate at Lewis and Clark College.

A detail in Heller's account of that trip. She says, pg. 333:

The author [Rand] and the Brandens left Chicago by plane for Portland, Oregon - Rand's first flight.

Does that mean that they'd traveled to Chicago by some other conveyance besides airplane?

Heller's references to the O'Connors are "sprinkled" around and hard to thread as a sequence. She says nothing about any visits except the one in December 1938 for Frank's father's funeral in Lorain. A footnote informs that Frank and Ayn "also traveled to Cleveland during the 1938 trip to Ohio, and that's where AR first met the Papurt family (author interview with MW [Marna Wolf], December 16, 2006)."

In the fashion which I find really irritating about Heller's book, she writes during the description of the 1938 trip to Ohio:

During one dinner, Marna recalled [...].

A footnote informs that the "dinner" referred to took place "in 1947, at the Essex House in New York."

Then why is it included in the description of the 1938 trip as if it happened then?

Slightly, but only slightly, informative about post-1938 relationships between Ayn and the O'Connors is this:

Marna's mother, Agnes Papurt, Frank's younger sister, and other relatives were wary lest one of their family favorites become separated from them by marriage to an exotic stranger. This didn't happen; Rand was immensely fond of Nick and Joe, kept in touch with other members of the family, and became good friends with Mimi. Later in the marriage, acquaintances recalled, Rand did increase the distance between her husband and his family, even if unintentionally. She grew more possessive of him as time went on.

Upon looking at the footnotes, one discovers that the "acquaintances" who recalled this - no particulars provided - are cited as a single acquaintance, Mimi herself (reference a taped interview conducted by Barbara January 20, 1983).

Ellen

[caroljane]

Sorry if you all have heard this one already.

Shmuel and Eleazer are arguing outside the yeshiva. Shmuel thunders passages from the Talmud and Eleazer roars back that he knows the true intent of the passages; God has spoken the truth to his spirit. Their adherents jostle, cheer and jeer. The voice of God booms from above: "Shmuel, give it up! Heed Eleazer, the guy is right!"

And Shmuel tells God to shut up, because he, Shmuel, HAS IT IN WRITING.

[Neil Parille]

Ellen,

Frank and Alice would come about once a year to visit...less at the end.

http://www.solopassion.com/node/5103#comment-119782

-Neil Parille

[Cathy]

Neil, the reason I said once a year is...I knew they had visited clearly 6 times. I remembered Clearly (Aunt Alice) once at my mother's house and I assumed the other 5 times were at my father's house since I lived with them for almost 5 yrs...so I assumed about once a year.. Thinking about the visits, I am not for sure on 2 occasions if it was at my father's or mother's house...which would broaden the time between their visits. Clearly I remember 3 visits at my dad's, and one at my mother's. The other 2 I am unsure which parent I was with. I said at the end it was less often. So these visit were from 1963-69...but it could have been up to 1970. Where were they in 66, because we moved to Arizona then, and we could have traveled to visit them. How many times did she visit Agnes in those years? How do I get a hold of Barbara? Or Heller? I want to know if they were ever told about us. Look, I'm trying hard to remember why, where, when and with who...I didn't write down my life history, so I don't have a book to refer back to. I started this by researching my mother's side first...I ran into far less arguments(which were none)...I should have known my father's side wouldn't be that easy. Even if we took from 63-69 that still equals once a year. I am saying from 63, because I was 5 and don't think I could remember at 4...but any things possible. really..what do you want from me Neil? Are you still trying to find out if I'm there niece? Is anyone on this site a judge that I could give written permission to open my juvenile records? I talked to my last foster mother about what she knew of my father. She said that the social worker told her my dad was never allowed to know were we were. I don't understand why...he never hurt us. So the big problem this leads me back to is why, all these why's! So really, why does it matter when they came to visit...is it written about every time she went to the grocery store, or doctor, or the bathroom? ~Cathy~