moralist Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 Darrell, re #16,Sadly I am not the current Oracle of all Knowledge on OL, that appears to be Moralist, but I am flattered anyway.Modestly,Carol Personally, I prefer understanding to knowledge. Our minds are radios, so I'm not the thinker of thought. I'm the observer of thought who makes the final decision on which thought to act upon and which to let pass by unresponded,Greg:Out of curiosity, do you feel stress from resoloving your individual judgments on good and bad, beautiful and uglyNot at all. Choosing one thing over another is just a natural part of living. You could not exist without the freedom to make your own choices.and their potential conflict with your Christian beliefs of accepting all souls and embracing their weaknesses, "sins" and other human frailties?Those are your own Christian beliefs. Mine are different.Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 Darrell, re #16,Sadly I am not the current Oracle of all Knowledge on OL, that appears to be Moralist, but I am flattered anyway.Modestly,Carol Personally, I prefer understanding to knowledge. Our minds are radios, so I'm not the thinker of thought. I'm the observer of thought who makes the final decision on which thought to act upon and which to let pass by unresponded,Greg:Out of curiosity, do you feel stress from resoloving your individual judgments on good and bad, beautiful and uglyNot at all. Choosing one thing over another is just a natural part of living. You could not exist without the freedom to make your own choices.and their potential conflict with your Christian beliefs of accepting all souls and embracing their weaknesses, "sins" and other human frailties?Those are your own Christian beliefs. Mine are different.GregCould you be spcific as to what your Christian beliefs are?A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 Could you be spcific as to what your Christian beliefs are?That's a really broad question, so I'll narrow it down to just addressing your own Christian belief....accepting all souls and embracing their weaknesses, "sins" and other human frailties...That's phony compassion... and has nothing to do with the real thing.When you "embrace" the evil in others, you're helping to make them worse. And just as it is not good for them to get your "acceptance" of their evil, it's not good for you to give it... for that complicity also makes you worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 Could you be spcific as to what your Christian beliefs are?That's a really broad question, so I'll narrow it down to just addressing your own Christian belief....accepting all souls and embracing their weaknesses, "sins" and other human frailties...That's phony compassion... and has nothing to do with the real thing.When you "embrace" the evil in others, you're helping to make them worse. And just as it is not good for them to get your "acceptance" of their evil, it's not good for you to give it... for that complicity also makes you worse.Greg:Once again, I did not state that they were my "Christian beliefs." However, I have many close relationships with a broad swath of Christians and that "open forgiveness" of sins and the consept of repentance is strongly represented in many of those different forms of Christianity.So, let's try this again.What are your Chistian beliefs? Articles of faith? Or, your foundational Chrisian beliefs?A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 I will take a guess . Foundational belief, "the kingdom of heaven is within me. And only me!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 Could you be spcific as to what your Christian beliefs are?That's a really broad question, so I'll narrow it down to just addressing your own Christian belief....accepting all souls and embracing their weaknesses, "sins" and other human frailties...That's phony compassion... and has nothing to do with the real thing.When you "embrace" the evil in others, you're helping to make them worse. And just as it is not good for them to get your "acceptance" of their evil, it's not good for you to give it... for that complicity also makes you worse.Greg:Once again, I did not state that they were my "Christian beliefs." But they are your beliefs as to what Christianity is, are they not?So I addressed them directly.However, I have many close relationships with a broad swath of Christians and that "open forgiveness" of sins and the concept of repentance is strongly represented in many of those different forms of Christianity.It's good to be sorry when you wrong others and to make it right with them because that makes you better. Forgiveness also makes you better because you let go of the angry blame (unjust accusation) of others, and realize your own responsibility for being wronged.So, let's try this again.What are your Christian beliefs? Articles of faith? Or, your foundational Christian beliefs?I've already described my view many times here, but I'll be happy to do it again. But first I need to correct the false premises in your question. I don't have "Christian beliefs" of "articles of faith" of "foundational Christian beliefs". I will tell you what I know.Everyone (you, me, everyone) is governed by the same objective moral law through the just and deserved consequences of our own actions... regardless of what we believe. No one is exempt. The game is not rigged. The playing field is perfectly level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 I will take a guess . Foundational belief, "the kingdom of heaven is within me. And only me!"That is your own belief.It isn't mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 Stop being coy then. What are your beliefs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 Stop being coy then. What are your beliefs?(from post#56)I've already described my view many times here, but I'll be happy to do it again. But first I need to correct the false premises in your question. I don't have "Christian beliefs" of "articles of faith" of "foundational Christian beliefs". I will tell you what I know.Everyone (you, me, everyone) is governed by the same objective moral law through the just and deserved consequences of our own actions... regardless of what we believe. No one is exempt. The game is not rigged. The playing field is perfectly level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 Stop being coy then. What are your beliefs?(from post#56)I've already described my view many times here, but I'll be happy to do it again. But first I need to correct the false premises in your question. I don't have "Christian beliefs" of "articles of faith" of "foundational Christian beliefs". I will tell you what I know.Everyone (you, me, everyone) is governed by the same objective moral law through the just and deserved consequences of our own actions... regardless of what we believe. No one is exempt. The game is not rigged. The playing field is perfectly level.Morality and ethics do not follow logically from the underlying natural physical laws. In a sense, Nature does not give a rat's patootee about right and wrong. So there are no Moral Facts. There are only Moral Opinions and Moral Judgments. Ba'al Chatzaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 Stop being coy then. What are your beliefs?(from post#56)I've already described my view many times here, but I'll be happy to do it again. But first I need to correct the false premises in your question. I don't have "Christian beliefs" of "articles of faith" of "foundational Christian beliefs". I will tell you what I know.Everyone (you, me, everyone) is governed by the same objective moral law through the just and deserved consequences of our own actions... regardless of what we believe. No one is exempt. The game is not rigged. The playing field is perfectly level.Morality and ethics do not follow logically from the underlying natural physical laws.Correct.It is exactly the opposite.Physical law serves higher moral law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 Correct.It is exactly the opposite.Physical law serves higher moral law.You have a very distorted view of things. Reality first, your moral opinions not first. Nature does not give a shit what is right and what is wrong.Only people do.Ba'al Chatzaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 Greg:As a self described "Christian," do you accept Christ's resurrection from the dead as accurate?A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 Greg:As a self described "Christian," do you accept Christ's resurrection from the dead as accurate?A...Yes....and would you mind removing your black hood.Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 Correct.It is exactly the opposite.Physical law serves higher moral law.You have a very distorted view of things.Of course it will appear that way. The view not chosen will always appear to be distorted. That's why you chose the view you chose, and not the one you didn't choose. Reality first...and last! The reality of the just and deserved consequences of your own actions is what renders the final verdict on whether your actions are right or wrong. Nature does not give a shit what is right and what is wrong.Yes. That's exactly the utterly impersonal objective quality of physical reality which makes it such an excellent judge of your actions. By the consequences of your own actions will you know whether or not they were correct. No one needs to tell you. The real world results of your own actions will always speak the last word.Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 Greg:As a self described "Christian," do you accept Christ's resurrection from the dead as accurate?A...Yes....and would you mind removing your black hood.Thanks. LOL good one Greg:Do you believe therefore, that there is an afterlife wherein your essence, "soul"/mind survives?A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 Greg:As a self described "Christian," do you accept Christ's resurrection from the dead as accurate?A...Yes....and would you mind removing your black hood.Thanks. LOL good one Greg:Do you believe therefore, that there is an afterlife wherein your essence, "soul"/mind survives?A... No, I don't believe.I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 Like you know what is beautiful and ugly, as on other thread? Flowers are beautiful and weeds are ugly. \yet the lilies of the field referenced by Jesus, who toiled not neither did they spin, were to the best of my own knowledge weeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 ...and would you mind removing your black hood.Thanks. LOL good one Greg:Do you believe therefore, that there is an afterlife wherein your essence, "soul"/mind survives?A... No, I don't believe.I know.Fair enough. A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 Like you know what is beautiful and ugly, as on other thread?Flowers are beautiful and weeds are ugly.Just another reminder that are only stating your own belief. And not mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 Stating my approximation of your belief, not my own. I find many weeds beautiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 Stating my approximation of your belief, not my own.Your approximation is way off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 A note on forgiveness and loving your enemy.Most sincere Christians I know love their enemies as God's children, but only on that level. They don't love many of the things their enemies do. And they will fight the enemies (or others) who do these things.But they will also forgive their enemies if they feel true regret and change have taken place in such an enemy's heart.I don't know Greg, but from his words here, he seems to be one of these.In a more secular way, this is the same approach I have toward humanity.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 ature does not give a shit what is right and what is wrong.Yes. That's exactly the utterly impersonal objective quality of physical reality which makes it such an excellent judge of your actions. By the consequences of your own actions will you know whether or not they were correct. No one needs to tell you. The real world results of your own actions will always speak the last word.GregYou read the message incorrectly. Right/Wrong in the moral or ethical sense have NO PLACE WHATEVER in natural physical laws. The judgement that X is Right or Wrong (in the moral or ethical sense) is not even Wrong in the objective sense.Ba'al Chatzaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caroljane Posted September 25, 2013 Share Posted September 25, 2013 As they say, the brain is matter, the mind is meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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