Best Within

[Brant Gaede]

I don't get a karate school that tolerates kicking below the waist. If you take out someone's knee he might well be crippled for life. Also, in true self-defense situations it's better to kick the knee than the groin. Virginia's small stature gives her only one advantage in a real fight: surprise. I gave up karate because I kept blocking kicks with my hands causing my finger joints to get distorted. I started karate as part of therapy with Nathaniel Branden who at the time was a close personal friend of Joe Lewis, the greatest (heavyweight) karate fighter of all time. He would talk about Lewis, "He could kill me with one finger," and that got the idea into my head that learning karate would increase my self-esteem. It did. When I tolf Nathaniel in group I was taking karate classes, he said, "I would think karate would be very good for you." I replied that I experienced it as extremely pleasurable in spite of how sore I was afterwards. This was 32 years ago.

--Brant

[william.scherk]

It's embarrassing reading bullshit like this. [ . . . ] You are either a liar or you have been lied to and you believed it. Either way your fantasies are just that, fantasies. Have whatever kind of a day you can manage [ . . . ] Believe me I know how much work and effort goes into learning a martial art. Just stick to reality.

Wow, Mikeee. There is a more than a hint of contempt and disdain for Virginia as a person in your intervention. Of what earthly use is adding that edge to your comments?

Maybe Virginia is a lying, bullshitting fantasist whose self-deceptions will likely lead to death by thug. Maybe she's a strutting maniac of self-delusion regarding her self-defence abilities.

Maybe not. Maybe you are an asshole.

[mvir9]

Just so everyone is aware -- as soon as Mikee questioned my veracity, I sent him a PM (which he referred to in one of his posts, when he turned down my invitation). This PM nicely stated that if he is ever around the Rockford, IL area, I would be happy to bring him to one of my classes so that he could watch me. I also explained that I understood that he felt he needed evidence to back up my statements. I DO understand his doubt, but I don't understand the outright condemnation when he has no evidence to the contrary. I have yet to be dishonest on this site, and I don't make a practice of dishonesty. I stand by everything I said.

Regarding Mikee's outright condemnation: I'm not concerned. If he wishes to believe that greatness is unachievable by a female in the martial arts, that is fine. It is no skin off of my back. ;)

And, I hold the invitation open to ANYONE who comes to the Rockford area. Just PM me, and I'll be happy to make arrangements. We can even enjoy a wonderful meal at a Japanese restaurant in Rockford that I frequent (great food and good company is always a welcome experience).

[mvir9]

I don't get a karate school that tolerates kicking below the waist. If you take out someone's knee he might well be crippled for life. Also, in true self-defense situations it's better to kick the knee than the groin. Virginia's small stature gives her only one advantage in a real fight: surprise. I gave up karate because I kept blocking kicks with my hands causing my finger joints to get distorted. I started karate as part of therapy with Nathaniel Branden who at the time was a close personal friend of Joe Lewis, the greatest (heavyweight) karate fighter of all time. He would talk about Lewis, "He could kill me with one finger," and that got the idea into my head that learning karate would increase my self-esteem. It did. When I tolf Nathaniel in group I was taking karate classes, he said, "I would think karate would be very good for you." I replied that I experienced it as extremely pleasurable in spite of how sore I was afterwards. This was 32 years ago.

--Brant

Some excellent points. And, just so it is clear, we do NOT strike the knee while sparring. As you pointed out, there is too much of a risk of injury. Actually, all joints are considered off limits during sparring (so, elbows are included -- imagine striking a straightened elbow in the "wrong" direction . . . it would be severely damaged, if not broken). We also avoid the throat and eyes because they are too vulnerable to injury. We do include groin strikes, but the men are required to wear protection.

[mvir9]

I agree, that each individual would have a particular take on the situation. But, does that make the morality or lack thereof a subjective determination?

And, the boys did give the mentally impaired child a "false win" when they allowed him to make a homerun that he never would have gotten on his own steam. That is why the comparison is being made.

Virginia,

Much has been made of faking reality not being good for a mentally impaired child. Let's check that premise. I suspect that those who claim this have not had much experience with mentally incompetent people.

Here is an experience that most everyone can have with lesser minds: dogs. There is a game I usually play with dogs. I get a bone or rag or something that is in his mouth and try to pull it away from him. I start faking being aggressive and make a great show of the effort I am employing. Then I let him win.

The dog always loves it and can't get enough.

I have also noticed that when another person is around who insists on winning all the time with the dog, he is not very popular with the dog for playing that game when I am around. The dog wants to play with me.

And I have also noticed that the dog can be quite ferocious in real situations, so there is no impariment whatsoever by my teaching it to fake reality, whatever that means in that situation. On a deep level, I think the dog even knows I am letting it win, just like I think that on a deep level, Shaya knew he was no real baseball hero in the normal sense of the word.

In other words, there is more than just competition going on at the time. There is also a recognition of intentions, approval of one another, and a whole set of dynamics at play. They are reality, too, right? Isn't ignoring them when judging what people (or dogs) are thinking a form of faking reality?

That is why my position in this discussion has been when a person judges these stories and talks about what is important to him and what is in his mind, I take him at his word and have no criticism. He knows his own mental reality better than I or anyone else ever could. When he starts talking about what is in other people's minds and insinuates that this is evil or suboptimal in moral terms, but leaves out a big chunk of reality, I contest it.

I have no problem with speculating about what is in other people's minds, but doing so while ignoring or brushing aside a part of reality leads to very inaccurate speculation.

Michael

Hello, Michael:

As I stated earlier, my concern with the faking of reality in this situation is the very strong possibility that this will bite the little boy in the butt later (when he wants to play again and doesn't understand why he can't or why he is shunned).

Even IF there were no negatives that manifested as a result of this faked reality, I still hold that the BETTER option would be to give the child a real sense of achievement by fostering his talents, because even mentally impaired individuals have talents. I have worked with several of these children in my children's school (brief experiences, but a great deal of fun). They are not hopeless -- they are humans with an impairment. And, each of these children have different impairments as well as different areas of talent (limited though these talents may be). Why delude them with a false sense of achievement when you can help them find the real thing? That is why I don't get this story, or its emotional significance.

By the way, my dog doesn't appreciate being deluded either! LOL

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Virginia,

I think baseball and sense of achievement were the last things on that kid's mind when people were applauding him. Just like I think the last thing on the dog's mind is that he is a superior puller to me.

The joy of approval-based interaction, even when it is make-believe, with someone you respect (and love) is a far, far greater element in those cases.

There is an emotional reality running inside people (and animals) that these outside things can prompt that have nothing to do with them except superficially. I realize that this emotional reality isn't the whole story (nor should it be) and other ways of integrating emotions to events exist. But one way does not negate or obliterate the other. I never understand why people get upset about this.

So I realize that some people do not get choked up from sappy stories. That's easy to see from the different statements I have read. They also do not get much joy from play-acting and find it to be a form of faking reality. But from what I can tell from observing the world around me, most people do get choked up and they do enjoy play-acting.

It is a mistake to call this altruism. I think altruism feeds on this sentiment and joy, but the sentiment itself is neither good nor evil. It merely exists as a preconceptual mental call to action based on a preconceptual value judgment, just like any other emotion.

Here is a point where I am at odds with Rand's statements. I agree that some emotions (not all, like Rand claims) can be influenced and automated by certain techniques. Rand called this programming your subconscious. But some emotions are innate (starting out as affects) and grow and mature in a certain direction all by themselves unless you mess with them on purpose. Even then, you can only go so far. The emotions in the baseball and dog stories are of that nature.

But just to show that I am not a sap, but instead a fierce competitor when I get in the game, I want to totally change gears right now and share a video in a different field, Internet marketing, that is more in tune with the competitive spirit (which I also cultivate inside myself).

I have been delighted to discover the world of Internet marketing because of the pro-achievement attitude that runs rampant in the field. There's a lot of hype, but there's a ton of good vibes to go with it. Living in that world is almost the same as living in a constant pep talk from a coach.

Internet marketers are people who actively work at reprogramming their subconscious, to use that Randism. But their focus is a little different. They do so to achieve success, thus attain their values, instead of aiming at moral perfection so they only choose correct rational values, whatever the hell that means. (Rand may or may not have had that in mind, but that's the way it comes across to me in the Objectivist flavor, and I disagree with the wisdom of that approach.)

The video is by John Reese. You may want to start around 6:30 or so at the Porsche story since it is a little over 13 minutes and is more marketing-centered at the beginning. I am sorry I cannot embed it. It is not on YouTube and no code is provided, so you have to go to the link to see it.

The Only Way To Change Your Reality Is To Face Your Reality

Reese tells a powerful tale of how people constantly buy hope and put it on the shelf instead of putting it into action. Now that's a story I think you and Michael can relate to as a warning.

But my favorite quote comes at about 9:09. I think this applies to the spirit to be No. 1 in sports if you start from an emotional position of doubt. (btw - Brad Fallon and Andy Jenkins are two of the most successful Internet marketers in today's world and run a program called Stompernet.)

You can never let anyone tell you that it can't be done or you're not going to do this. You know, some of you may be married and your spouses think you're on crack because you want to do this Internet thing and listen to these two Bozos named Brad and Andy.

But you can't listen to to that stuff. You've got to just believe in yourself. And here's what you have to do. I'll tell you the secret. Here's what it was for me.

You've got to brainwash yourself to think that you are going to be incredibly wealthy. And if you die before that happens, you won't know any different, so that's a good principle to go by.

You won't know indeed if you die. But you will die happy—knowing inside that you are a millionaire. You just didn't get to the part about actually having the money when you were interrupted.

Back to you and emotional reactions. I am supposing, but from what little I do know of martial arts, emotional discipline is paramount in your studies. Is that correct?

I suddenly see parallels all over the place.

Michael

[Jonathan]

That kind of kindness is disrespect.

I don't think that it's disrespectful for a much larger, stronger, faster fighter to hold back when going against a tiny opponent in a sporting bout. Look at it this way: My nephew was about the same size that Virginia is when he was in the seventh grade. I'm 6'4", weigh about 210, and am in pretty good shape. I probably outreached my nephew by 6 to 8 inches. If I had stepped into the ring with him and fought him when he was at that size, it would have been very irresponsible, perhaps even criminal, of me to give him everything I had, no matter how well-trained and tough he imagined himself to be. His over-confidence and certainty that he could handle it, and his willingness to "take the risk with his own body" would not excuse me from the responsibility of knowing that my blows might cause him permanent, life-altering damage.

Or, to change the perspective to Virginia's scale, are we to believe that she would fight her hardest, and deliver her most powerful, most devastating blows if she were matched up against a 3'8", 50-pound girl?

Like the Shaya story, I suspect that Virginia's "wins" against larger males, if she has indeed fought larger males, were due to the "faking of reality" that is necessarily created when pitting a large fighter against a much smaller one in an instructional or sports-like environment where good sportsmanship is expected, and where causing serious damage to an opponent is discouraged. The fact that the tiny combatant doesn't grasp the potential danger she's in doesn't mean that the larger combatant is going to suddenly forget how much damage he could do if he were to let loose.

It is my body, and my risk to take. I'm no fool. I understand that injury is a possibility in karate -- of course it is a possibility. However, that is why I train so hard, and that is why I can and do often win the matches. I have not been hurt too often in karate, but when I have, the injuries have been mistakes on my own part (dropping my hands, throwing a strike off balance, etc.). If I fight properly, I won't get hurt -- even against a guy three times my size.

Um, no. If you were to step into the ring with, say, Kimbo Slice, or even an average amateur fighter with his size and strength, and he put in a mere tenth of the effort that he puts into fighting his male opponents, you would get seriously, badly hurt, no matter how quick and smart you think you are as a fighter. You would be unconscious in a matter of seconds, and you'd probably have a broken jaw, a concussion and lots of blood pouring out of you.

You don't seem to have a grasp on the reality of the physical power involved in what's being talked about here, and that indicates to me that your experiences with training/fighting are probably very controlled and safe, and much closer to something like yoga or dance than actual combat training. It's like listening to college women basketball players claiming that they're good enough to play on a men's NBA team, when, in reality, they would (and do) get smoked by average B-squad high school lads. It's like the girls you hear about every few years who decide to try out for the boys' football team, and then, after taking their first light hit in practice -- a hit which the average male player wouldn't even really notice -- they end up on the ground crying, puking and gasping, and instantly quitting the team. Suddenly it occurs to them that they might not have had a proper amount of respect for the physical power they were facing.

Now, consider this:

Karate is intended for self-defense training. If my opponent treats me as if I'm a fragile object, and that is all I train with, how well do you think I will be prepared for a REAL attack, by a very eager, angry man?

I don't think that it's possible for someone your size to be prepared for a real attack by a very eager, angry man two or three times your size. You will lose in such an attack, and you will lose when attacked while training for such an attack -- if a man the size and strength of Kimbo Slice were to attack you during a training exercise, and if he did so with everything he's got, the only thing you'd learn is what it's like to get knocked out cold.

J

Edited June 23, 2008 by Jonathan

[Brant Gaede]

That kind of kindness is disrespect.

I don't think that it's disrespectful for a much larger, stronger, faster fighter to hold back when going against a tiny opponent in a sporting bout. Look at it this way: My nephew was about the same size that Virginia is when he was in the seventh grade. I'm 6'4", weigh about 210, and am in pretty good shape. I probably outreached my nephew by 6 to 8 inches. If I had stepped into the ring with him and fought him when he was at that size, it would have been very irresponsible, perhaps even criminal, of me to give him everything I had, no matter how well-trained and tough he imagined himself to be. His over-confidence and certainty that he could handle it, and his willingness to "take the risk with his own body" would not excuse me from the responsibility of knowing that my blows might cause him permanent, life-altering damage.

Or, to change the perspective to Virginia's scale, are we to believe that she would fight her hardest, and deliver her most powerful, most devastating blows if she were matched up against a 3'8", 50-pound girl?

Like the Shaya story, I suspect that Virginia's "wins" against larger males, if she has indeed fought larger males, were due to the "faking of reality" that is necessarily created when pitting a large fighter against a much smaller one in an instructional or sports-like environment where good sportsmanship is expected, and where causing serious damage to an opponent is discouraged. The fact that the tiny combatant doesn't grasp the potential danger she's in doesn't mean that the larger combatant is going to suddenly forget how much damage he could do if he were to let loose.

It is my body, and my risk to take. I'm no fool. I understand that injury is a possibility in karate -- of course it is a possibility. However, that is why I train so hard, and that is why I can and do often win the matches. I have not been hurt too often in karate, but when I have, the injuries have been mistakes on my own part (dropping my hands, throwing a strike off balance, etc.). If I fight properly, I won't get hurt -- even against a guy three times my size.

Um, no. If you were to step into the ring with, say, Kimbo Slice, or even an average amateur fighter with his size and strength, and he put in a mere tenth of the effort that he puts into fighting his male opponents, you would get seriously, badly hurt, no matter how quick and smart you think you are as a fighter. You would be unconscious in a matter of seconds, and you'd probably have a broken jaw, a concussion and lots of blood pouring out of you.

You don't seem to have a grasp on the reality of the physical power involved in what's being talked about here, and that indicates to me that your experiences with training/fighting are probably very controlled and safe, and much closer to something like yoga or dance than actual combat training. It's like listening to college women basketball players claiming that they're good enough to play on a men's NBA team, when, in reality, they would (and do) get smoked by average B-squad high school lads. It's like the girls you hear about every few years who decide to try out for the boys' football team, and then, after taking their first light hit in practice -- a hit which the average male player wouldn't even really notice -- they end up on the ground crying, puking and gasping, and instantly quitting the team. Suddenly it occurs to them that they might not have had a proper amount of respect for the physical power they were facing.

Now, consider this:

Karate is intended for self-defense training. If my opponent treats me as if I'm a fragile object, and that is all I train with, how well do you think I will be prepared for a REAL attack, by a very eager, angry man?

I don't think that it's possible for someone your size to be prepared for a real attack by a very eager, angry man two or three times your size. You will lose in such an attack, and you will lose when attacked while training for such an attack -- if a man the size and strength of Kimbo Slice were to attack you during a training exercise, and if he did so with everything he's got, the only thing you'd learn is what it's like to get knocked out cold.

J

Generally speaking karate skill levels don't transfer well out of weight class. Virginia should carry a gravity or switch-blade knife and a concealed .38 Special snub-nosed double action revolver with hollow point bullets. But I think her believable karate skills have given her a dangerous level of self-confidence. You see, those skills are self-referential which is only re-enforced by sparring and controlled tournament situations. Now, the way the Chinese do it I don't really know. I once knew an illegal Chinese chap who trained with someone who trained Bruce Lee. He also had some Hong Kong police training. In Queens three Anglos attacked him and he took them all down. Thereafter he had to move out to the suburbs to get away from the Chinese gangs who all wanted to recruit him. I last saw him in 1989. I hope he went back to China and found his fortune. That was what he was trying to do in America.

--Brant

[mvir9]

Well, I'm happy to see that you all have psycho-analyzed me without having 1) met me; 2) seen my abilities in karate.

I'm interested in this skill -- what shall we call it? Psychic presumption? Please, teach me. Is there some form of Zen-Buddhist mysticism involved? I've never been a fan, but this could turn me.

On a more serious note -- When a person offers to prove their ability, but that proof is denied by the naysayers, then the naysayers are the ones denying reality. Not me.

It often amuses me how some Objectivists are afraid of confidence that sits outside of their realm of comfort. I often wonder if they've even read Atlas Shrugged.

I am the type of person that has no problem admitting to my weaknesses -- and I have no shame in admitting my strengths. Regrettably, that seems to be a problem around here.

Luckily for you, I have enough confidence to know that I have better things to do than to sit here while you poke your thorns into me.

I wish most of you well.

P.S. Michael Newberry -- my admiration for you is unassailable; M.K. -- thank you for trying to stay on point.

Edited June 23, 2008 by Virginia Murr

[Chris Grieb]

I'm going to miss Virginia. I don't know if I can say the same about some of the rest of you.

[rush242]

Ohfercryinoutloud.

I am the type of person that has no problem admitting to my weaknesses -- and I have no shame in admitting my strengths. Regrettably, that seems to be a problem around here.

No, it's not a problem around here. People are simply disagreeing with you about the amount of value that controlled sparring has in preparation for conflict with experienced street fighters. That people happen to disagree doesn't mean it's personal. Nor does it mean that they consider your claims are strengths, even when you state that they are.

Luckily for you, I have enough confidence to know that I have better things to do than to sit here while you poke your thorns into me.

I wish most of you well.

P.S. Michael Newberry -- my admiration for you is unassailable; M.K. -- thank you for trying to stay on point.

Is it just me, or is it endemic on o'ist lists that the second the philosophical rocket scientists are called to task on something, or the second there is a simple disagreement, someone always has to run like hell and unsubscribe in a huff?? Is this just human nature?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Virginia did not unsubscribe to my knowledge. I think she just left this particular discussion.

It's the karate chop to the neck and walk off technique.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

Well, I'm happy to see that you all have psycho-analyzed me without having 1) met me; 2) seen my abilities in karate.

I don't think anbody here has questioned your karate skills. Several, including me, question how effective those skills would be outside a dojo. I'm sure there are some small statured muggers you could take down. For a big guy you'd better get him in the knee right off the bat. Ordinarily I'd say you'd want to pick up some serious judo skills. My sensei was a high black belt in both karate and judo. Someone once tried to mug him and he broke his arm. I suspect he used judo for that. But you are probably much too light to effectively use judo that way. Use your fingers and go for the eyes. Tear them out. Nothing you have written tells me you are really oriented towards self-defense. Now, as a sport ....

--Brant

[Judith]

This entire self-defense discussion interests me greatly. I am pretty much a beginner at self-defense. I've taken a few courses by guys who were masters at a number of disciplines and I've learned some techniques. That's about it. I've developed a great deal of respect for the superior strength of the male versus the female pound-for-pound. Men are strong, and they're not as susceptible to pain as women in a fight. That said, there are parts of the body to which no one can withstand an attack. And there are a number of reasonably small, elderly male martial arts masters who can whup 22 year old bruisers any day of the week. Those are the ones who interest me. I know I can't rely on brute strength, so I want to learn techniques from a variety of disciplines that are useful in street fights. It's a matter of precision. Pick your targets, and hit them early and hard and fast. Take out your opponent fast, because if the fight goes on for more than a few seconds, you will lose. Etc. And most men don't expect a woman to fight back, so in those early seconds of a fight, she has an advantage. A weapon always helps. If you're not carrying one, improvise. Make sense?

And nothing is more important than will. Usually, the one being attacked has more will to win than the attacker. One has to believe ferociously in one's own value, and to believe that it's not okay to give up until one is unconscious or dead.

Judith

Edited June 23, 2008 by Judith

[rush242]

Take out your opponent fast, because if the fight goes on for more than a few seconds, you will lose. Etc. And most men don't expect a woman to fight back, so in those early seconds of a fight, she has an advantage.

I wouldn't bet on that last one, not by any sense of the word.

[bmacwilliam]

Just stick to reality.

I suggest the same for you. Have a wonderful day!

I have been trying to be nice. You are either a liar or you have been lied to and you believed it. Either way your fantasies are just that, fantasies. Have whatever kind of a day you can manage.

People don't like to be slapped in the face with reality.

Any reasonably athletic man, twice her size, would crush her like a bug. I know this from experience. Years of dedication and practice mean nothing when one is outmatched like this. The only hope they have is a lucky shot to a sensitive area - eyes, groin, neck. Only a stroke of pure luck will stop a man from hurting her in very short order.

Brains vs braun - please. Unarmed man vs Lion - how often does brains win?

That's life. Reality sucks sometimes.

Bob

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

The whole purpose of martial arts is to give a fighting advantage to developed skill irrespective of size (unless you are way beyond the measure like a midget). I see nothing wrong with that and I am at a bit of a loss as to why this is objectionable.

By the standards of brute strength, Mike Tyson never would have KO'd all those bigger fighters in his prime.

I admire enormously someone who can get so pumped up that defeat is not an option. Even when a person like that goes down (when he is pumped up), he usually ends up hurting his opponent.

The easiest way, though, is just shoot somebody.

Michael

[Newberry]

Virginia is a little naive. She has not learned to stand on tippy toe, and say, while looking up to every man she meets, "wow. You are amazing."

Michael

[Jonathan]

Well, I'm happy to see that you all have psycho-analyzed me without having 1) met me; 2) seen my abilities in karate.

It's not psychoanalysis, but experience with fighting, playing and watching all sorts of sports, and recognizing the relevance of gender, size and strength differences.

I'm interested in this skill -- what shall we call it? Psychic presumption? Please, teach me. Is there some form of Zen-Buddhist mysticism involved? I've never been a fan, but this could turn me.

If you've got video of you street fighting against someone Kimbo's size, I'd love to see it. Speaking of Kimbo and video, here's Kimbo and a couple of his opponents who Virginia apparently believes she could fight without getting hurt if she just kept her guard up and didn't throw any off-balance strikes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UcmIQ4xLrY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88JEckrCNzc

On a more serious note -- When a person offers to prove their ability, but that proof is denied by the naysayers, then the naysayers are the ones denying reality. Not me.

And how were you planning on proving your ability? If our fellow poster "Rush" agreed to meet you in a back alley and throw down with you, with no rules other than no weapons, no running away (it's a fight, not a marathon) and the winner is the person who first renders the other unconscious, would you take him up on it? If so, how could Rush be guaranteed that, if he were to hurt you badly, you wouldn't change your mind about "It is my body, and my risk to take" after the fact? If he were to put you into a coma or kill you, would a waiver that you signed protect him from the lawyers that you or your family would hire to go after him? What incentive would Rush have to risk incurring the potential legal expenses associated with demonstrating how badly he could hurt you in a no-holds-barred street fight?

Another option of proving your skills would be for you to contact an organization like EliteXC, inform them of your confidence in your fighting ability, and tell them that you'd like to skip over Gina Carano and the other women and go straight for Kimbo or the lighter males. If you're as tough as you think you are, there's a hell of a lot of money to be made going up against these men who you think can't hurt you if you keep your hands up. Let us know if you get the gig and don't get your brains bashed in, and I'll eat my words, publicly apologize to you as often as you'd like, and become your biggest, loudest fan and supporter.

It often amuses me how some Objectivists are afraid of confidence that sits outside of their realm of comfort. I often wonder if they've even read Atlas Shrugged.

I just did an image search, and here's a picture of Kimbo, and here and here are pictures of you. Kimbo's arms are probably bigger than your legs. The punch that he threw which knocked "Dreads" on his ass (in the video above) would probably break your neck. So, it's not your "confidence" that we're criticizing, but your detachment from reality. I think that our favoring reality over your assertions is an Objectivist virtue.

I am the type of person that has no problem admitting to my weaknesses -- and I have no shame in admitting my strengths. Regrettably, that seems to be a problem around here.

Since you apparently think you could hold your own against Kimbo, I'm wondering what kind of situation you think would be one in which you might get seriously hurt. If Kimbo were to team up with Wladimir Klitschko and Samuel Peter, and they all fought against you at the same time, would you still think that you'd avoid getting hurt?

Luckily for you, I have enough confidence to know that I have better things to do than to sit here while you poke your thorns into me.

Judging by the over-sensitivity of your responses, it sounds as if you're quite lacking in confidence. No one is poking you with thorns. We're just saying that your controlled-environment karate skills don't translate to street fighting in the way that you apparently imagine they do. I have a lot of personal, first-hand experience with tiny people -- usually, but not always, overconfident females -- thinking that they can run with the big dogs. They get hurt very quickly when they actually try it. That's the basis of my opinion of how well you're likely to do against even a lightweight male street fighter.

If you have video of you holding your own against a male in a street fight -- a fight where he's actually jabbing at your head and trying to knock you out -- I'll be glad to change my opinion. Until you prove that you would not get hurt against a bad-ass like Kimbo, you're just a tiny lady making silly assertions that you haven't backed up with evidence.

J

Edited June 24, 2008 by Jonathan

[Jonathan]

Virginia is a little naive. She has not learned to stand on tippy toe, and say, while looking up to every man she meets, "wow. You are amazing."

Michael

If I were to say that an elementary schoolgirl would not be able to compete as a middle linebacker in the NFL no matter how much she loved and practiced football, would you be so idiotic as to suggest that my saying so was based on some kind of male insecurity and the need to be adored by women?

Last night Candace Parker became the second woman to dunk in a WNBA game. Good for her, I'm happy for her accomplishment, but if she were to now announce that she could hold her own against Kevin Garnett, would I be accused of expecting women to say, "wow, you're amazing" to every man they met if I reminded Parker that there probably isn't a single male in the NBA who hasn't dunked during a game, and that KG's ability to get much higher above the rim than she can would be quite relevant to how badly he would beat her?

J

Edited June 23, 2008 by Jonathan

[Newberry]

In the other thread, it seemed to me that you were arguing that winning was the most important part of the game. Here, you chose to pursue something different.

Judith,

Young players have to develop new skills or they won't improve. They often have to bite the bullet and implement their new untested skill set. That doesn't imply that they are not trying to win. Also, winning is the objective in sports among equals, but not at any cost. Cheating isn't allowed, certain gamesmanship isn't allowed, and tanking can get you into big trouble with colleges and associations. ("Tanking is when you don't try.")

The beauty of sports is that everyone is trying their absolute hardest--it's honest, and the best person/team wins that day. If people are not trying their best, it really isn't sport anymore but some kind of social, water cooler activity.

Michael

[Newberry]

Come on J, you know how great it feels when a woman, or anyone else for that matter says "wow. You are amazing!"

[Judith]

Since you apparently think you could hold your own against Kimbo

I think you guys are being more than a bit hard on Virginia. Taking care of one's self on the street against the average mugger doesn't require that one be able to "hold your own against Kimbo". The average man is 5'8". Most muggers don't train as fighters. Their stake in the fight isn't nearly as high as the person attacked. More is to be learned from interviews of prison inmates on how they choose their victims. They tend to have an animal-like sensitivity to which women will fight like tigers and which will be passive victims. The interviewers were often mystified about how these guys would look at videos of certain women and say, "I wouldn't touch that one with a ten-foot pole; she's a fighter", and the woman in question would be about 5'2", small build, extremely feminine in appearance, etc. Just the confidence of knowing that one has some self-defense abilities and is willing to fight to the point of unconsciousness or death is enough in many cases to win the fight. What's the motivation of the attacker? If he has a personal grudge, your fight is going to be a lot harder than if he just wants your money belt and is trying to grab it. There are a lot of variables here and you're kind of assuming the worst here: You're putting Virginia up against a huge, world-class fighter with a personal grudge against her and the will to fight to the death. Is THAT realistic?

Judith

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

If people are not trying their best, it really isn't sport anymore but some kind of social, water cooler activity.

Michael,

I'm not sure about the water cooler, but this is exactly what everyone has been saying. The kids in the story essentially stopped playing sports and started playing something else that looked like sports. And that was fun, too.

Besides, we all need a drink of water once in a while.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...