The Second American Revolution

[Rich Engle]

Yeah: on top of it, she's wryly humorous. That was some funny stuff, there.

[Rich Engle]

But, one has to remember: Barbara is SO EvIL: just ask the air baton conductor, he'll tell you all about her.

rde

Big Dogs Go First~and pay no attention to the Man Behind The Curtain...

Edited March 23, 2009 by Rich Engle

[Selene]

Michael"

"This shows that this stuff, if it is done right, works." Agreed. I have never been averse to learning from, or, sleeping with the enemy!

I have in numerous campaigns employed street theatre which I borrowed from SDS and the new left, you know the folks that trained O'Biwan the MAGNIFICENT.

This was a very good discussion. Anything that stimulates quality writing is invigorating to me.

Rich enjoy your new path.

This "tax revolution" is in its infancy with embers falling almost randomly across America, but I sense it is that small golf ball of snow just beginning to pick up mass and speed and head hell bent on the village that could not only not raise a child, but can't even pick up your garbage on time and within budget.

http://pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/74067/

Adam

[Alfonso Jones]

Why is it impossible to support Ron Paul?

Check out:

http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/national-defense/

for the answer.

The man does not understand the conflict we are in. Much else he says is good. But a laissez-faire economy won't do us much good if we are unwilling to defend our country. And I discern in Ron Paul a naivete about the external threats to the country which is appalling. SOme of this may have made sense in 1900 when the technologies and terrorism were more primitive and permitted a slow response to be effective. And when doom for thousands or millions could not be contained in a briefcase.

Bill P

[galtgulch]

Why is it impossible to support Ron Paul?

Check out:

http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/national-defense/

for the answer.

The man does not understand the conflict we are in. Much else he says is good. But a laissez-faire economy won't do us much good if we are unwilling to defend our country. And I discern in Ron Paul a naivete about the external threats to the country which is appalling. SOme of this may have made sense in 1900 when the technologies and terrorism were more primitive and permitted a slow response to be effective. And when doom for thousands or millions could not be contained in a briefcase.

Bill P

As I understand him, Ron Paul points out that a non interventionist foreign policy practiced consistently, in particular not having the CIA put a dictator in place of an elected leader, e.g. the Shah of Iran in 1953, and not building 826 military bases in 130 countries around the world, in particular not in Saudi Arabia which is considered holy land where Mecca and Medina are, would have gone a long way to preventing the animosity towards our country.

Regarding your briefcase containing the means to annihilate millions, just what do you expect anyone can do to prevent that from happening? There are over one billion who belong to the Islamic religion and even a tiny percentage who are militant and willing to sacrifice themselves and to take innocent lives with them to oblivion. How in the world would it be possible to contain these fanatics or to destroy them.

I agree if you are saying that we will not be safe until they are wiped out.

One egregious policy is that our govt buys oil from the Saudis who spend our money to support the madrasses which teach hatred of Americans throughout the Islamic world. It is easy to criticize Ron Paul who has been standing alone over 300 times voting "No!" to every bill which proposed adding a power to our govt which is not authorized in the Constitution. Ron Paul offered proposals for the Congress to vote to Declare War which is a power exclusively granted to the Congress. The Congress declined and passed the buck to the president which is a kind of delegation also not authorized.

It is far easier to complain than to offer a meaningful alternative policy or plan of action. I have yet to hear that from you.

Many of you folks are rearranging the deck chairs. Our freedoms are being assaulted by the present administration which is engaging in all manner of unauthorized activities, bailing out banks, auto companies, deflecting the attention from the fact that it was the govt which forced the banks to lower their standards which caused the subprime crisis, and blaming the bankers instead.

Instead of whining or giving up and passively accepting all of this, Ron Paul's supporters on campuses and homes across the country are recruiting and educating new patriots to the cause. I joined the Campaign For Liberty shortly after it was created by Ron Paul when there were just 6000 who had joined. At the beginning there were 40 campuses with organizations in support of Ron Paul during the election. Now there are over 125 campus groups actively recruiting.

This campaign for liberty movement is happening and promises to continue to grow and grow. It remains to be seen who will emerge from the movement to run for offices at every level. It remains to be seen how the debates become more substantial with issues never before dealt with made explicit. Education will not be reserved for elections but will be done by those in the movement.

Ron Paul ignited the movement. He made it clear it is up to each member to decide what role to play and what to do. Ron Paul said he has no intention of running anyone's life. The implication is that the currenct administration has that intention with their plans to spend your money as they see fit and to force citizens to be involved in some sort of community service.

These people who are joining this movement are profoundly concerned with the direction our country is going. Ron Paul has raised their consciousness by making them aware of issues they had not been aware of explicitly. I will only mention the Federal Reserve and its role in causing the loss of purchasing power of the dollar and issues having to do with the Constitution. My point is these folks are open to learning and listening to reason. That is why I think it is a fantastic opportunity for Objectivists to influence everyone within this C4L movement.

To be turned off by some policy of Ron Paul and consequently refuse to get involved with the growing movement of young people who are impassioned in their determination to change the course of our country is folly.

We all know that Ayn Rand believed that it is necessary to lay the proper philosophical foundation before there can be successful political action. We have an opportunity now and we will continue to have opportunities as time goes on to influence the people involved. No doubt there is a group of people in your Congressional District anywhere in the country. Leaders will emerge and candidates will enter the fray. Others will contribute in a variety of ways.

This movement is growing. There are 126054 now and in time there will be millions. The sooner those of us in the Objectivist movement participate the more influence we will have. There is no doubt that this movement will be effective.

Even now a bill has been submitted to the Congress, H.R. 1207, to audit the Federal Reserve which has a growing number of co sponsors, thanks in part to the efforts of those in the C4L who called and emailed their Congressmen. Now a similar bill has been proposed in the Senate S604 with a growing number of co sponsors. This tidbit of news can be found featured on www.campaignforliberty.com Congressional Switchboard 1 866 340 9281 Let your representatives know you want them to co sponsor these bills and will be watching.

The Campaign For Liberty is making it happen, with or without our help.

There are no contradictions in the universe. These folks are dedicated to individual freedom, free markets, sound money, non interventionist foreign policy, adherence to the Constitution and limited government.

They are more open to listening to reason than typical politicians. We have an opportunity here. If you disagree with one or more of their positions, so be it. Perhaps you can be influential in correcting their misconceptions or inconsistencies.

gulch

Edited March 23, 2009 by galtgulch

[Rich Engle]

Well, I have read the recent posts... well-put.

Where I'm at with it is simple. It's like, we are lucky to even have one of these Ron Pauls. Thing is, don't nitpick the man. Even to have someone remotely close to the core positions counts for something. Plus, he's kind of cool, and he's definitely funny: I like that quality in a man.

Edited March 23, 2009 by Rich Engle

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Just to be clear on the driver's license thing, so long as it is law that photo ID's are required for accessing certain things (like operating a motor vehicle on a public road), nobody (neither Muslim women nor members of the KKK) has any "right" to demand they take the identification photo with their head covered. The whole idea is to help authorities identify people approved for such access and wrongdoers.

As to whether a person has the right to dress as he/she sees fit in public, even if this offends some people, that should not be an issue in a free society.

Even though Basso's discourse focused on the first, I did get a shadow of the second in between the lines.

There was a popular idea among conservatives and anti-Muslims groups a while back concerning Muslim attire. The idea was that the Muslim dress code, especially in places like schools and taxi cabs, was a sneaky manner of indoctrinating the rest of us. Thus it should be monitored and possibly prohibited. There was some highfalutin word for such indoctrination, but I no longer remember what it is.

I get the impression that Basso would agree with this position. I don't.

Michael

[galtgulch]

I get the impression that Basso would agree with this position. I don't.

Michael

Michael,

I apologize for going off on a tangent with my post #30 above. I suppose it is considered to be "off topic." You found this fellow Basso who dresses up like a Colonial and acts as if he were Thomas Paine, If he had ever read Paine he would have discovered that TPaine rejects the notion of a deity altogether. Yet Basso pontificates about how we are all under God which is utter nonsense. If anything Basso perpetuates the status quo with no challenge to the prevailing ideology/theology.

If you look closely enough you will find the evil triad: mysticism, altruism and collectivism in Basso's rants.

I see an analogy between what you find appealing about Basso and what the voters found appealing about Obama.

In the meantime I will eagerly await your critical, well thought out response to post #30, but I will not hold my breath.

I cannot promise that I will stop trying to reason with you folks about the Campaign For Liberty. But you have tired me out by simply ignoring me and offering no substantial response.

www.campaignforliberty.com 23Mar 7AM 126172, 9AM 126215

gulch

Edited March 23, 2009 by galtgulch

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I see an analogy between what you find appealing about Basso and what the voters found appealing about Obama.

Gulch,

I would be interested in knowing what this analogy is. I suspect it is dead wrong.

In the meantime I will eagerly await your critical, well thought out response to post #30, but I will not hold my breath.

I had no idea you wished this from me, seeing has how you quoted Bill P and addressed no one.

But in general terms, you are free to promote this cause on OL. There is enough freedom involved to make it interesting. Whoever wishes to join will do so of their own free will. But I will not be intimidated into joining it. I have serious differences with Ron Paul and the people who surround him. All this has been discussed before at length.

Besides, this is a discussion forum, not a recruitment station.

I cannot promise that I will stop trying to reason with you folks about the Campaign For Liberty. But you have tired me out by simply ignoring me and offering no substantial response.

The best I can understand of this, "reason" in Gulch-speak means joining the Ron Paul cause. All of your arguments are aimed at that. So what is there of substance? I generally agree with most of the ideas you mention (without the excessive scapegoating and some oversimplifications), but I agreed with them decades ago. I do not agree with joining the Ron Paul movement.

Anyway, here's a shot. My substantial response is that I think for myself and choose for myself and I say I will not join. It's good that you tire because I will never tire and grant the power to make me do otherwise to anyone.

It's my life. Not yours.

If that makes me "unreasonable," so be it.

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

I cannot promise that I will stop trying to reason with you folks about the Campaign For Liberty. But you have tired me out by simply ignoring me and offering no substantial response.

www.campaignforliberty.com 23Mar 7AM 126172

gulch

Delenda Cartago est!

Ba'al Chatzaf

[galtgulch]

I see an analogy between what you find appealing about Basso and what the voters found appealing about Obama.

Gulch,

I would be interested in knowing what this analogy is. I suspect it is dead wrong.

In the meantime I will eagerly await your critical, well thought out response to post #30, but I will not hold my breath.

I had no idea you wished this from me, seeing has how you quoted Bill P and addressed no one.

But in general terms, you are free to promote this cause on OL. There is enough freedom involved to make it interesting. Whoever wishes to join will do so of their own free will. But I will not be intimidated into joining it. I have serious differences with Ron Paul and the people who surround him. All this has been discussed before at length.

Besides, this is a discussion forum, not a recruitment station.

I cannot promise that I will stop trying to reason with you folks about the Campaign For Liberty. But you have tired me out by simply ignoring me and offering no substantial response.

The best I can understand of this, "reason" in Gulch-speak means joining the Ron Paul cause. All of your arguments are aimed at that. So what is there of substance? I generally agree with most of the ideas you mention (without the excessive scapegoating and some oversimplifications), but I agreed with them decades ago. I do not agree with joining the Ron Paul movement.

Anyway, here's a shot. My substantial response is that I think for myself and choose for myself and I say I will not join. It's good that you tire because I will never tire and grant the power to make me do otherwise to anyone.

It's my life. Not yours.

If that makes me "unreasonable," so be it.

Michael

Michael,

Thanks for the positive things you said. I wouldn't say no one is trying to run your life, just not me.

I suppose knowing of the existence of the C4L is not a source of hope for everyone. I may be disappointed and might have unrealistic expectations for it.

It is troubling to watch the pundits show their ignorance about the current crisis and frustrating to know a little more about some aspects of it than they do. For example I saw Stephen Forbes advocating for the Federal Reserve to be buying toxic assets this morning.

Anyway I have a dentist appointment with an endodontist later this morning so I better get ready.

I apologize if I came on too strongly.

www.campaignforliberty.com 23 Mar 9AM 126221

gulch

[Alfonso Jones]

(snip)

In the meantime I will eagerly await your critical, well thought out response to post #30, but I will not hold my breath.

I cannot promise that I will stop trying to reason with you folks about the Campaign For Liberty. But you have tired me out by simply ignoring me and offering no substantial response.

(snip)

Gulch -

I don't recall you trying to reason with us - any more than, at a football game, the cheerleaders for one team "reason" with the players for the other side. Just saying that you think we should support Ron Paul is not reasoning with us. To begin reasoning, it would be good to start dealing with the serious objections to Ron Paul which have been raised by quite a few of us on this discussion board.

Bill P

[BaalChatzaf]

Gulch -

I don't recall you trying to reason with us - any more than, at a football game, the cheerleaders for one team "reason" with the players for the other side. Just saying that you think we should support Ron Paul is not reasoning with us. To begin reasoning, it would be good to start dealing with the serious objections to Ron Paul which have been raised by quite a few of us on this discussion board.

Bill P

Such as blaming the U.S. for the 9/11 attack, such as completely underestimating the danger the radical Jihadists present to the continued existence of our society, such as advocating that women who are pregnant be compelled to bear. Little things like that.

Other than that R.P. is just dandy.

Delenda Cartago Est!

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Alfonso Jones]

Gulch -

I don't recall you trying to reason with us - any more than, at a football game, the cheerleaders for one team "reason" with the players for the other side. Just saying that you think we should support Ron Paul is not reasoning with us. To begin reasoning, it would be good to start dealing with the serious objections to Ron Paul which have been raised by quite a few of us on this discussion board.

Bill P

Such as blaming the U.S. for the 9/11 attack, such as completely underestimating the danger the radical Jihadists present to the continued existence of our society, such as advocating that women who are pregnant be compelled to bear. Little things like that.

Other than that R.P. is just dandy.

Delenda Cartago Est!

Ba'al Chatzaf

That's a good start for the list.

Bill P

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Such as blaming the U.S. for the 9/11 attack...

From what I have read of Ron Paul, this is an oversimplification that has turned into a rather malicious distortion of his real meaning.

... such as completely underestimating the danger the radical Jihadists present to the continued existence of our society, such as advocating that women who are pregnant be compelled to bear.

From what I have read, these are not oversimplifications.

Michael

[Selene]

Ron Paul is on with Glenn Beck right now folks

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